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Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

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Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#461

I take the opportunity to let people know that there are alternatives to Google/Apple duopoly on mobile. Link: https://www.ubuntu-touch.io/ Sure, GrapheneOS is often suggested but Ubuntu Touch is a really interesting alternative, their own store and ecosystem. The community is amazing and welcoming. If there are Android apps which you can't do without, they can be emulated and used anyway. Imagine switching to Linux…

At the moment I would recommend FuriLabs solution. https://furilabs.com/

It already has a built in Android VM that allows seamless FDroid and Aurora Store usage.

Since FuriOS is a based Debian distro, it should be reduced friction to use PostmarketOS or UbuntuTouch.

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#462
post #453

The vast majority of Android users don't sideload apps. I used Android for years and only did it during dev. I don't know anyone who does it.

I had to sideload telegram, the version on Google Play has restrictions (censorship I believe) that the sideloaded version doesn't.

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#463
post #383

Sideloading is a neologism to scare users and lawmakers, it just means "Installing software" and should be a basic right. Also software installation in Android has been high friction for a while. Installing an APK on my phone is at least 10 clicks.

>Sideloading is a neologism to scare users and lawmakers, it just means "Installing software" and should be a basic right. No it's not. The term originated far before this debacle, and carries a meaningful distinction than just "installing". Specifically it means installing from a non-first party source. You might not agree the restriction should exist, or that even the concept of first party source at all, but for c…

>No it's not. The term originated far before this debacle, and carries a meaningful distinction than just "installing". Specifically it means installing from a non-first party source

It's amazing how many confidently wrong people are springing up out of the wordwork to present revisionist history about the meaning of "install" like it's ancient wisdom. Pre-mobile computing treated "install" as neutral and primary and had no built in relation to centralized distribution. Sideloading as a term of art originally, in practice came into usage for transferring media to devices, and some cloud file hosts briefly used it to mean load a file to an online drive without downloading it to computer. It's usage was varied, irregular, and not at any threshold of popular acceptance for one meaning or another.

Windows, Dos, Linux, and online self-hosted services had no notion of "sideloading", or at least no usage of that vocabulary and did not use this notion of "install" that is now being retrospectively declared a longstanding historical norm. Even now, that's not a term used in Windows or Linux. Even Apple, who very much in practice utilize this controlled distribution model but even they don't use this sideloading/installing verbal distinction. In Apple's lexicon installing is neutral with respect to where an app comes from.

So it's staggering to see a specific term of art that deviates from historical precedent that only is used in an Android context and only relatively recently in the history of computing be referred to as if its observing a longstanding precedent across all of computing. It's nothing of the sort.

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#464
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have struggled with getting anything functional on a Fairphone running Ubuntu Touch. The problem is you can't really run any Linux app, it has to be written to support their specific display manager. Running regular Linux apps is possible but not properly documented and I haven't gotten it to work. Android apps through Waydroid sort of works, but is unstable and not suitable for daily use. I really want Linux on mo…

It's never going to work. Any competitor that isn't Android won't have app support (e.g. you won't even be able to message people in 90% of the world where WhatsApp, Telegram, Line, etc. are the de facto communication method for almost the entire population). So you need some way to run Android apps... which is totally possible, but at that point why not just use Android?

If you are willing to have 2 phones... it will/already is needed if you need rooted/unrooted Android phone.

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#465
post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies. I was thinking of Android user profiles which are available from mainline and (AFAIK) prevent the linked workaround from revealing any apps not installed in the same profile. So it's an example of an unfixed leak in Android but not (as I had previously implied) something that Graphene corrects. Honestly the state of anti-fingerprinting (app, browser, and otherwise) is fairly abysmal but that's hardly limit…

>Apologies. I was thinking of Android user profiles which are available from mainline and (AFAIK) prevent the linked workaround from revealing any apps not installed in the same profile. But there's no evidence that stock android leaks apps installed across profiles? The link you provided doesn't discuss profiles at all, and stock android also has private space and work profile just like grapheneos.

... yes? That's what I said? Feature available in mainline, motivating leak unfixed, graphene doesn't correct.

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#466

Google's long term strategy with Android is baffling to me. Apple has had better mobile hardware for years. Apple has higher consumer trust. Apple has better app selection (for most people). Apple has been increasingly implementing the core features that differentiate Android devices, like USB-C and RCS. Every Android user lost to the increasing iOS market share is another customer Google has to pay exorbitant fees t…

> Apple has higher consumer trust.

That is quickly eroding and has never been justified other than by marketing.

> Apple has better app selection (for most people).

Android has always had a much better selection of open source software, which, at least to me, is the thing that matters most.

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#467
post #368

Sideloading is a neologism to scare users and lawmakers, it just means "Installing software" and should be a basic right. Also software installation in Android has been high friction for a while. Installing an APK on my phone is at least 10 clicks.

I think what is missing here is the growing trend of scammers convincing people they are their bank (or whatever) and walking them through enabling side-loading and then installing malware (sometimes to address some urgent security issues with their account). This is meant to counter an actual issues that is affecting many many users.

Should we whitelist the whole web for this reason too? Why does that trend use apps and not websites?

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#468

I'm with Google on this one. Idiots and old people (the public) use these devices daily. These are the very same people that send money to Nigerian royalty and expect to hear back about a great reward. This is mostly a CYA move with hard data behind it. If they completely removed side load, that would be a different story.

Why wouldn't they just use websites instead? Imagine if you had to ADB from a PC to enable a website that isn't Google approved.

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#469
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is incorrect. The IOS versions of social media apps extract way less data from the device than on android, and is thus more privacy friendly. Source?

Here’s one example: > Meta devised an ingenious system (“localhost tracking”) that bypassed Android’s sandbox protections to identify you while browsing on your mobile phone — even if you used a VPN, the browser’s incognito mode, and refused or deleted cookies in every session. — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44235467

That's only one example, and as I explained in a sibling comment[1] doesn't even seem like something iOS designers were specifically defending against. In light of this, I think it's fair to say this example is poor and that another one is warranted. For instance, I'd consider the app tracking transparency changes to be something where iOS was doing better than Android on, but Android has since reached feature parity on that because you can delete your advertising id, which basically does the same thing.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46755250

Re: Google confirms 'high-friction' sideloading flow is coming to Android

#470

Google's long term strategy with Android is baffling to me. Apple has had better mobile hardware for years. Apple has higher consumer trust. Apple has better app selection (for most people). Apple has been increasingly implementing the core features that differentiate Android devices, like USB-C and RCS. Every Android user lost to the increasing iOS market share is another customer Google has to pay exorbitant fees t…

This isn't about pure revenue, it's about scams.

Android has a reputation for being unsafe precisely because of sideloading (as well as low Google Play fees, looser app review, accessibility services and remote access).

This policy is bad for us HNers, but objectively good for the 95+% of people who will never sideload a legitimate Android app, but are extremely likely to get caught by scammers.

The heavy US skew of HN really distorts the arguments here, as Android-based scams aren't as common in AMerica due to the prevalence of iOS in that region.

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