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Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

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Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#131

Post by stephen_g »

MarkusWandel wrote: post #105
juliangmp wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most concerning limitation in the German market is the unavailability of native Glass Fiber modems, that can accept as input a Glass Fiber connection: at the moment, providers install their own Glass Fiber modem. Im actually quite okay with that. Why should I have to pay for specialized hardware that won't be usable if I move and the new apartment uses DSL or docsis. Give me an rj45 (or sfp for some fiber conne…

The "glass fiber modem" is an inherent part of the GPON network. These are complicated. The "P" stands for "passive". Yours and and up to 127 other houses are all on the same "light domain" i.e. the downstream is passively split, and the upstream is passively combined, in optical boxes that don't even have electrical parts. This needs crazy accurate timing for the upstream. The head end needs to know the exact delay…

They are complicated, but standardised and commoditised. Ubiquiti, for example, sells an ONT (fibre modem) in a SFP form factor for US$39 [1], or a little standalone unit with an Ethernet port for US$49 [2].

1. https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/fiber-gpon/products/uf-i...

2. https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/fiber-gpon/products/wave...

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#132

Post by direwolf20 »

stephen_g wrote: post #131
MarkusWandel wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "glass fiber modem" is an inherent part of the GPON network. These are complicated. The "P" stands for "passive". Yours and and up to 127 other houses are all on the same "light domain" i.e. the downstream is passively split, and the upstream is passively combined, in optical boxes that don't even have electrical parts. This needs crazy accurate timing for the upstream. The head end needs to know the exact delay…

They are complicated, but standardised and commoditised. Ubiquiti, for example, sells an ONT (fibre modem) in a SFP form factor for US$39 [1], or a little standalone unit with an Ethernet port for US$49 [2]. 1. https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/fiber-gpon/products/uf-i... 2. https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/fiber-gpon/products/wave...

For comparison: you can bring your own DOCSIS modem to a cable network, even though all the houses on the street are connected to the same cable and you could jam it, or send a voltage spike to break everyone's modem.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#133

Post by sgjohnson »

direwolf20 wrote: post #125
sgjohnson wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulating peering within the EU would already be a win. Regulating peering how? Freedom of commerce is one of the core pillars of the EU. Forcing a company to do business with another company is insanity. If DTAG doesn't want to peer with CloudFlare, you can't force them.

WhatsApp has been required to provide an open API, Apple has been required to provide alternative app stores. Neither one has actually done it because the EU is too pussy to enforce the law, but the legislators clearly had no huge principle disagreement when writing these laws. Mobile networks have been forced to allow roaming in other countries for a certain low fee, and that is actually enforced and has happened. I…

The difference between WhatsApp open API, alternative App Stores and forcing peering is that it costs virtually nothing for WhatsApp to provide an open API, and for Apple to allow alternative App Stores.

Roam-like-at-home is also not a particularly good comparison here, because the the roaming fees were basically a price gouging scheme.

Don't like DTAG? You're free to switch to another ISP.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#134

Post by pona-a »

ccozan wrote: post #9

Telekom is well known for the crappy service - but they have a de facto monopoly. For example, when it rains, the line goes down where I live. Solution: I got my Starlink. 3x speed. No crappy service. Weather independent. And surprinsingly cheaper ( 40 euros vs 45 ) . [ as much as I do not like Musk & co, this is a real useful thing he build for the mankind - internet everywere from sattelite ]

I don't have think this is sustainable. There can physically be only so many satellites before we reach Kessler syndrome. The costs will rise as the quality of service falls, and there market for alternative land-based ISPs will not have developed.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#135

Post by sgjohnson »

yayachiken wrote: post #128
sgjohnson wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulating peering within the EU would already be a win. Regulating peering how? Freedom of commerce is one of the core pillars of the EU. Forcing a company to do business with another company is insanity. If DTAG doesn't want to peer with CloudFlare, you can't force them.

DTAG are also a consumer ISP. A consumer ISP should be considered a utility, and utilities can also be forced to provide certain services. In addition, Internet Exchanges have become so critical for the Internet architecture that they should also have some privileged status. Legislation could focus on the following general rules, without favoring some providers over the others: * If you participate on an IX node, the…

Letting the government regulate peering will be the death of the internet as we know it.

I don't believe that there's a single lawmaker, anywhere in the world, who understands anything about the fundamentals of IP transit. But no doubt they have ISP buddies who understand everything about it, and no doubt they'll be the ones actually writing the legislation.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#136

Post by [deleted] »

zhouzhao wrote: post #89
haunter wrote: post #11

Not sure it’s the same issue but in Hungary they (DT) refuse to use/pay Cloudflare so in peak hours every single site outside the country loads incredibly slow because of the constant re-routing. Everything has to go through Frankfurt even though CF would have alternate direct routes https://kozosseg.telekom.hu/topic/40322-cloudflare-magyar-te... https://old.reddit.com/r/programmingHungary/comments/1ngv2pt... https:/…

It's similar. The DT is not doing cost neutral peeing with Cloudflare. Also the DT has no (or only one 10G NIC) at the DE-CIX. I pay 80 EUR for 1Gbps/300mbps and it's behind GPON or if you can get more XGS-PON. Not even real ethernet. It's a shame.

[deleted]

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#137

Post by jesprenj »

Slovenian ISP T-2.net also violates local network neutrality laws here by requiring customers to pay extra to unblock some special TCP ports, like 25 and 53, meaning they block selfhosting email and dns servers without additional payment. I filed a complaint to the national regulator AKOS. They first responded with agreeing with me, but nothing was fixed for many months, and upon emailing the regulator again, I received a different response from another employee claiming that charging more for unblocking special applications is legal (it's not).

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#138

Post by perching_aix »

juliangmp wrote: post #93
madduci wrote: post #38

I own a FTTH connection to Telekom since 2018, as the only provider in my street, allowed to install an internet connection (only glass fiber). Since then, I have always used my own device and I maintain a GitHub Snippet in how to connect OpenWRT modem (and by extension, any other modem that supports pppoe), rather than their Huawei SpeedPort crap or the more expensive Fritz Box). Link to Gist : https://gist.github.c…

> The most concerning limitation in the German market is the unavailability of native Glass Fiber modems, that can accept as input a Glass Fiber connection: at the moment, providers install their own Glass Fiber modem. Im actually quite okay with that. Why should I have to pay for specialized hardware that won't be usable if I move and the new apartment uses DSL or docsis. Give me an rj45 (or sfp for some fiber conne…

You say "why should I have to pay", but they really haven't said or suggested anything about how they'd rather you paid for anything. They're talking about having an option to supply one's own device, not about requiring so.

The common rationale behind this I'm aware of is that an ONT device is technically a computer with persistence, hosting arbitrary code and data that you cannot (or at least not supposed to) audit or alter, despite being on your premises, operated on your cost (electricity, cooling, storage), and specifically deployed for your use. These properties hold for SFP modules too in general, not just SFP ONTs (they're all computers with persistence).

The catch is that this is further true for all of these kinds of modems.

The counter-catch is that despite that, for DSL specifically, you could absolutely bring your own modem, hw and sw both.

The counter-counter-catch is that with DSL, you were not connecting to a shared media, but point-to-point. This is unlike DOCSIS and GPON, where a misconfigured endpoint can disrupt service for other people, and possibly damage their or the provider's devices and lines.

That's all the lore I'm aware of at least.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#139

Post by sgjohnson »

jesprenj wrote: post #137

Slovenian ISP T-2.net also violates local network neutrality laws here by requiring customers to pay extra to unblock some special TCP ports, like 25 and 53, meaning they block selfhosting email and dns servers without additional payment. I filed a complaint to the national regulator AKOS. They first responded with agreeing with me, but nothing was fixed for many months, and upon emailing the regulator again, I recei…

Blocking port 25 is perfectly reasonable.

There are no sane and legitimate reasons for running an SMTP server on a residential connection. Even most server providers will block it unless you give them some very good reasons.

Blocking 53 is just weird though.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#140

Post by ThrowawayTestr »

amelius wrote: post #103
kybernetyk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, the threat vector to me as a resident of Germany is the German government - not some dude at the other end of the world. What is Musk going to do? Ban me from Twitter? Not sell me a Tesla? That's nothing compared to what German authorities can do to me. Germany is a country where you get police searching your home for torrenting movies or making stupid jokes on Facebook. So yeah. Also about enshittification - on…

He could sell information about which websites you visit.

So can every website with a tracking cookie
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