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Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

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Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#641

Post by culebron21 »

tim333 wrote: post #508
arunabha wrote: post #12

I looked at the video and have no words. Why, just why?

There was an interesting take from Garry Kasparov. Excerpts: >what’s happening in Minnesota is method, not madness. Trump wants violence, to radicalize & divide, to create pretext for crackdowns. >...Having lived through a similar, nationwide version of this in Trump's model, Putin's Russia, it’s not easy to fight against ( https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/2015126502845587957 ) I'm not American and not saying it's rig…

Kasparov as usually exaggerates. As a Russian, I can think of only 2 cases he may refer to: 2002 riot after world cup match, when a crowd watched Russia team lose to Japan, then went to destroy displays and cars in Moscow center. It was followed by wrenching the mass rallies laws. Some publicists later, in the '10s, suggested it was orchestrated, but the whole theory forgets that Russian team could have won. You don't create a plan where your pretexts may not take place at all.

The other case he may think of is May 2012 protest, where a bottleneck created stampede, and a fight with police ensued. Random protesters got persecuted for whatever reasons. But the crackdown was already under way with the new state Duma passing ever tougher law amendments.

Sociologically, it's nonsense to make a pretext by attacking the other side, because you don't know what how they react: maybe the opponents just hide, or go around. To make a crackdown, you stage the attack on yourself, and then react, and crack down. E.g. Hitler staged the opposition putting Reichstag on fire, and then reacted. In Trumps case, brutal attacks are a step too far, because people may react differently -- what if nothing happens? or if republicans change their mind and impeach him?

Putin made a crackdown on media and civic liberties in a soft and gradual way: the media was taken down by stakeholders loyal to him, or maybe by a made-up bankruptcy case. Mass protests were made very hard to do, and needed a permission. But if any happened, the police wouldn't start a street fight, but would instead arrest and charge the organizers next day.

What Kasparov usually writes is a big exaggeration. In 2015 he wrote a comment on social media, that Russia needs a pro-democratic dictatorship to fix it. I think this is exactly what technocrats and oligarchs thought when they supported Putin coming in 1999 -- that he was authoritarian, but would lead Russia away from communistic revenge.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#642

Post by dang »

slg wrote: post #499
dang wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bureaucracy? ouch! Yes, when you bring up extreme scenarios such as nuclear war (or civil war, as slg did - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46746817 ), that's a way of saying that we're fiddling-while-rome-burns, burying-head-in-sand, etc. The problem is that you're assuming your conclusion by invoking those scenarios. That doesn't make the argument stronger. I agree that the probability of such scenarios is not…

>There's another argument too, although I quake a bit at bringing it up. Suppose the truly extreme, end-of-world scenario really is coming to pass. What contribution do we make by jettisoning HN's mandate, going to war and turning the site into a battlefield, sooner rather than later? How do more posts of angry denunciations and screaming at each other move the needle on the end of the world? This is spoken like a me…

That's helpful in that it clarifies a difference in assumptions. I don't believe that HN, or its admins, have anything like the power you're attributing to it/us. We're basically janitors.

That's not a criticism. I understand how a perception like what you're expressing can arise, but it can only arise from afar.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#643

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

fuzzfactor wrote: post #488
datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I'm most worried about is that Pam Bondi / Department of Justice refuses to investigate these or properly prosecute these cases. Law enforcement above accountability is a hallmark sign of “too far gone”.

Law enforcement is one thing but when Washington sends war-fighters into a state against the will of the state's leadership, somebody has got to be prepared to take some casualties if there is any resistance. The greater the force and amount of armament, the worse it can end up becoming. It wasn't good when it happened in the 19th century either.

War-fighter is a generous description given the preparedness of the agents they’re sending. This is how they’re behaving against disorganized whistle-blowing confrontational citizens, not e.g. an ideologically-motivated separatist militia.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#644

Post by nozzlegear »

zahlman wrote: post #247
duxup wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE has regularly attacked protesters and bystanders who are simply recording, walking away and so on. Even people just driving through their neighborhood have been dragged out of their vehicles and apprehended. Citizen or otherwise doesn’t seem to matter. They aren’t professionals and operate with neither the training, nor the will to obey the law. Much of the time they seem to believe trying to bait folks into an e…

> ICE has regularly attacked protesters and bystanders who are simply recording, walking away and so on. > Even people just driving through their neighborhood have been dragged out of their vehicles and apprehended. Citizen or otherwise doesn’t seem to matter. I have seen many claims of this sort, but every single time there's been video available of the incident, it's become clear to me that nothing of the sort is g…

> The people "being dragged out of vehicles" have been refusing lawful orders and then being arrested for it.

"Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that 'an unjust law is no law at all.'" — Martin Luther King Jr.

> But no, being a citizen does not, in fact, matter if you are breaking federal law in the presence of a federal agent, and that law includes obstruction of federal justice.

“The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right.” — Henry David Thoreau

> All of this is extremely clear in law.

“Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice.” — Henry David Thoreau

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#645

Post by myko »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #413
HPMOR wrote: post #358

Why is this being hidden off of the main HN pages? There are clearly enough points for it to be significantly up weighted. I don’t understand the censorship.

[flagged]

Tim Cook is having dinner and a movie with the man most responsible for this mess tonight

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#646

Post by siliconwrath »

Statement from Michael and Susan Pretti Parents of Alex Jeffrey Pretti "We are heartbroken but also very angry. Alex was a kindhearted soul who cared deeply for his family and friends and also the American veterans whom he cared for as an ICU nurse at the Minneapolis VA hospital. Alex wanted to make a difference in this world. Unfortunately, he will not be with us to see his impact. I do not throw around the 'hero' term lightly. However, his last thought and act was to protect a woman. The sickening lies told about our son by the administration are reprehensible and disgusting. Alex is clearly not holding a gun when attacked by Trump's murdering and cowardly ICE thugs. He had his phone in his right hand and his empty left hand is raised above his head while trying to protect the woman ICE just pushed down, all while being pepper sprayed. Please get the truth out about our son. He was a good man. Thank You.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alex-pretti-fatally-sho...

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#647

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

chipsrafferty wrote: post #445
youngtaff wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many HN readers flag anything that they deem to be “politics”

Unless it has computer!

Sometimes even with computer! Don’t want to get uncomfy that the code you’re writing is enabling terrible things.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#648

Post by komali2 »

thiht wrote: post #434
rurp wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the most clear murder I've ever seen, zero question about intent or anything else. After the four agents have thrown the guy to the ground and are pinning him down you can see the fed on the left pull out his gun and shoot the defenseless man in the back, and then the others jump back and join in. This is truly unreal. Even more unreal that we know nobody will get prosecuted for this murder and we'll see anoth…

But the MAGA cult will find yet another explanation that this man magically hurt the 4 ICE agents and they all ended up in a hospital somehow, or that carrying weapons with a permit is unacceptable if you vote democrat

That it's a cult needs to be better recognized by the mainstream in the USA.

This podcast gave me more insight than I wanted into the Trump cult being well and truly a cult: https://open.spotify.com/show/3hkMl04iMcdayIhxFbL9WT

It's two libbed up people talking with their fully steeped Trumpian parents, trying and failing to find common ground. Horrifyingly the parents recently said they would support Trump even if he ordered federal agents to kill everyone indiscriminately in a random mall in LA, and their adult kids were murdered as a result.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#649

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #413
HPMOR wrote: post #358

Why is this being hidden off of the main HN pages? There are clearly enough points for it to be significantly up weighted. I don’t understand the censorship.

[flagged]

Most HN members are also well-educated enough to understand the implications of this scenario are more serious than the typical political article. Employment may start being affected, for example. The career decisions you make are already certainly affected if you choose to / choose not toto work somewhere that facilitates this federal agency.
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