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What has Docker become?

tuananh.net

181–190 of 286 posts

Re: What has Docker become?

#181
post #148
post #133

Hi, I'm the founder of Docker. I started it in 2008 (under the name Dotcloud) and left in 2018. AMA.

What are your thoughts on Podman?

Imitation is the highest form of flattery! Obviously there was demand for an alternative to Docker that was native to the Red Hat platform. We couldn't offer that (although we tried in the early days) so it made sense that they would.

In the early days we tried very hard to accommodate their needs, for example by implementing support for devicemapper as an alternative to aufs. I remember spending many hours in their Boston office whiteboarding solutions. But we soon realized our priorities were fundamentally at odds: they cared most about platform lock-in, and we cared most about platform independence. There was also a cultural issue: when Red Hat contributes to open source it's always from a position of strength. If a project is important to them, they need merge authority - they simply don't know how to meaningfully contribute to an upstream project when they're not in charge. Because of the diverging design priorities, they never earned true merge rights on the repo: they had to argue for their pull requests like everyone else, and input from maintainers was not optional. Many pull requests were never merged because of fundamental design issues, like breaking compatibility with non-Red Hat platforms. Others because of subjective architecture disagreements. They really didn't like that, which led to all sorts of drama and bad behavior. In the process I lost respect for a company I once admired.

I also think they made a mistake marketing podman as a drop-in replacement to Docker. This promise of compatibility limited their design freedom and I'm sure caused the maintainers a lot of headaches- compatibility is hard!

Ultimately the true priority of podman - native integration with the Red Hat platform - makes it impossible for it to overtake Docker. I'm sure some of the podman authors would like to jettison that constraint, but I don't think that's structurally possible. Red Hat will never invest in a project that doesn't contribute to their platform lock-in. Back when RH was a dominant platform, that was a strength. Nowadays it is a hindrance.

Re: What has Docker become?

#183
Admittedly, on my infrastructure, Ive been de-dockerizing. Theres too many footguns and little gotchas, and they all add up.

For example, sharing a graphics card, say a Intel A380 and Jellyfin, over docker is a TERRIBLE experience.

But the same, with a full VM, and the gfx card shared to it is easy peasy.

Now, for testing applications, docker is great. But when I decide to run a service, I'll de-dockerize OR single VM with docker inside, with cronjobs to once a week update.

And logging/monitoring is also a hell of a lot easier per machine, rather than 8 services through docker.

I'm sure if I need a full dynamic service fabric, sure go with Docker or K8s. But this is for personal and friend usage.

Re: What has Docker become?

#184
Docker is only successful because of free software: the foss docker daemon, the foss docker cli client, and of course linux.

Docker tried to become a proprietary software company, which is rude and user-hostile.

Re: What has Docker become?

#185

Seems like (according to the author) whatever docker is doing it is a sign of their immediate demise and everyone on HN is cheering for the company to go down in flames no matter what. The tech is open source and free forever - thats somehow a problem? The company monitised enterprise features, while keeping core and hub free - also a problem? Is exploring AI tools, like everyone else is? should they not? should they…

> The tech is open source and free forever - thats somehow a problem? The company monitised enterprise features, while keeping core and hub free - also a problem?

Docker Desktop, among other things, is not open source and is not free.

Open Core is not something that people who care about software freedoms engage in. It’s what proprietary software makers engaging in open source cosplay do.

Re: What has Docker become?

#186

"The problem is that Docker the technology became so successful that Docker the company struggled to monetize it. When your core product becomes commoditized and open source, you need to find new ways to add value." No, everything was already open source, other had done it before too, they just made it in a way a lot of "normal" users could start with it, then they waited too long and others created better/their own…

> but swarm was never intended to be a kubernetes contender. Your comment is accurate for the original Swarm project, but a bit misleading regarding Swarm mode (released later on and integrated into docker). I have worked on the original Swarm project and Swarmkit (on the distributed store/raft backend), and the latter was intended to compete with Kubernetes. It was certainly an ambitious and borderline delusional st…

I love Kubernetes, but it's still a big leap from docker-compose to k8s, and swarm filled that niche admirably. I'm still in that niche -- k8s is overkill for every one of my projects -- but k3s is pretty lightweight, easy to install, and there's a lot of great tooling for k8s I can use with it. Still wish there were something as simple as "docker-compose plus a couple bits" that was swarm mode -- I'm drowning in YAML files!

Re: What has Docker become?

#190
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's next for Dagger? Any upcoming features?

Yes :) We heard the feedback that we should pick a lane between CI and AI agents. We're refocusing on CI. We're making Dagger faster, simpler to adopt. We're also building a complete CI stack that is native to Dagger. The end-to-end integration allows us to do very magical things that traditional CI products cannot match. We're looking for beta testers! Email me at solomon@dagger.io

Really happy to hear this. I was tinkering with Dagger soon before the pivot to AI, and assumed this would not be solving my CI woes anytime soon.

Focusing on CI would still enable the AI stuff too! But my use case is CI, no AI.

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