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In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

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Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#361

Post by NetMageSCW »

sneak wrote: post #192
testing22321 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Are you annoyed corn farmers get subsidies for growing corn? Would you be annoyed if people got subsidized life saving health care? It feels like the US can’t have nice things because people are hell bent on others not having nice things. What a shame.

Yes, yes, and yes. Is it an intentional mischaracterization to conflate not wanting wealth redistribution with “others not having nice things”? “others not having nice things” is a superset of “others not having unearned nice things”.

I don’t see where roads are unearned?

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#362

Post by ZeroGravitas »

fred_is_fred wrote: post #97
kokey wrote: post #47

Every time, over the years, that there has been some kind of headline saying renewables have overtaken fossil fuels, when you look at it a bit more closely there is always a big 'but'. For example, it was compared to coal (not taking into account electricity from gas), or it was for one day, or it was a percentage of new installations, or it excludes winter, includes nuclear etc. This time, however, it looks like it'…

How much did Russia's recent invasion of Ukraine and nat gas price and supply changes accelerate things?

Sadly we got a warning in 2014 with Crimea being seized and fossil apologists like Bjorn Lomborg argued against rolling out wind and solar faster in response.

Because he's so "reasonable" and "pragmatic", he didn't say we shouldn't phase out Russian gas, he just said solar and wind don't work and so we should invent some totally new type of energy for this purpose.

It's only with a few years hindsight that he's obviously a shill. You had to be paying close attention at the time to notice.

And sadly that kind of engineered delay is widespread.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#363

Post by monero-xmr »

danny_codes wrote: post #270
mekdoonggi wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked into sodium-ion batteries for which factories are coming online in China. The theoretical manufacturing cost of those is very very low, which will make solar + batteries very cheap. I suspect China will reach those costs ahead of schedule.

IMO this is a classic case of underestimating how far manufacturing improvements can get you on the cost scale. You see a promising technology in the lab and it’s hard to imagine a 1 million x reduction in price, yet we see that time and time again as tech gets scaled out. What’s wild to me is how the US is leaving itself in the dust. How the GOP imagines we’ll be competitive when the rest of the world can produce el…

I mean where are all the factories making batteries in Europe? It’s not like the US is purposefully preventing battery tech. It’s why all of the government-funded solar companies imploded as well. The manufacturers do not compete

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#364

Post by JuniperMesos »

apercu wrote: post #130
dataviz1000 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. It would be worth including control of the people who vote for the politicians by direct investment such as when the oil producing Saudis bought the second largest stake in NewCorps which controls FoxNews controlling the content that influences voters. And, less than ethical control using bots on social media by Russia. A lo…

I agree wholeheartedly, and the technocrats are complicit with the GOP here. It's funny how “free markets” keep producing the most expensive solar prices in the developed world. Don't get me started on Healthcare (I just moved back to the U.S. a couple years ago after 18 years in Canada, what a cluster*ck). Oil and gas buy politicians, foreign oil money buys media influence, and social-media bots keep voters angry at…

The US doesn't have a free market in either health care or electricity generation. An actual free market in solar power would probably result in more or less what we are seeing with the actual highly regulated market in electricity, namely extremely cheap prices for additonal solar energy in the middle of the day when the sun is shining, higher prices for additonal solar energy in the evening when demand is high and the sun has gone down, and some fixed cost to pay for physical electric grid infrastructure that needs maintenance regardless of whether it is being used at any particular moment.

Oil and gas don't buy polticians more than any other industry does, but voters do get particularly angry at politicians when the price they pay for energy suddenly spikes.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#365

Post by direwolf20 »

triceratops wrote: post #324
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so rooftop solar is a higher /kW solar farm. That's one argument against it. On the other hand, it is also distributed which from some perspectives is a benefit, and is also do-able with very little planning and grid extension. So that's one argument for it. How things come out on balance depends a bit on what you value and how you imagine the future.

The generation is distributed. That only benefits the people who have panels on their rooftops. If we want them to share the excess with others during a power outage it requires further grid investment. I think homeowners should install solar panels and batteries where it makes economic sense. If there's money left over after funding utility-scale solar then it should be used for EV incentives and/or funding electrif…

Solar farms don't work during power outages either. When the power isn't out, you get to use the power from your neighbor's solar panel.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#366

Post by margalabargala »

triceratops wrote: post #324
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so rooftop solar is a higher /kW solar farm. That's one argument against it. On the other hand, it is also distributed which from some perspectives is a benefit, and is also do-able with very little planning and grid extension. So that's one argument for it. How things come out on balance depends a bit on what you value and how you imagine the future.

The generation is distributed. That only benefits the people who have panels on their rooftops. If we want them to share the excess with others during a power outage it requires further grid investment. I think homeowners should install solar panels and batteries where it makes economic sense. If there's money left over after funding utility-scale solar then it should be used for EV incentives and/or funding electrif…

You absolutely do not want them sharing the excess with neighbors during a power outage, this is how you get dead linemen.

Solar panel grid tied inverters generally will refuse to function if there's no external power coming in.

The benefit from the distributed generation means that if your local area has large loads added you don't necessarily need to upgrade the HVDC lines from the power plant to accommodate.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#367

Post by direwolf20 »

SamPatt wrote: post #310
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great job of indirectly implying that there must be a tradeoff. Funny thing though: those poor countries? They're not building nuclear, or oil fired, or coal fired, or natural gas plants. They're installing solar. Not necessarily because they care about what percentage of their energy usage is renewable, but because there is no tradeoff . Further, environmental protection is not a luxury good, it's a long term invest…

Everything has a tradeoff. That's a foundational truth of economics. Environmental protection is a luxury good in economic terms. The Environmental Kuznets Curve is compelling to me. It's extremely difficult to assess the ROI on long term investments, particularly when your country has unstable rule of law or conflict. I'm pro-solar, it's amazing technology that empowers individuals and communities. I just don't agre…

How do you compensate your neighbors for the loss of garden view caused by your house?

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#368

Post by pbasista »

jeorb wrote: post #184
testing22321 wrote: post #4

Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. It makes 7.72Mwh per year, worth $1000. Tight valley, tons of snow. We put that on the loan for 8 years, then get $1000 per year free money for 20 years or so. Biggest no brainer of all time. Dad in Victoria Australia just got 1…

The quotes for solar on my home in the US ranged between $40,000 (local company) and $120,000 (Tesla). How did you get solar installed for only $13,000?

Those numbers are meaningless unless you specify what you get in return.

It is like saying that you pay $30,000 for a car. But the most important question is: For which car?

Also, if the installation services are so expensive, you can always install everything yourself.

Study how to do it, get the tools and materials, and then do it. It would be time-consuming, challenging and perhaps it would carry extra risks. Absolutely.

But it is not rocket science. It can be done. As long as there is a motivation to do it, i.e. a good value you will get out of it in return, it should be a valid approach to consider, in my opinion.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#369

Post by daveguy »

sl_convertible wrote: post #287
apercu wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree wholeheartedly, and the technocrats are complicit with the GOP here. It's funny how “free markets” keep producing the most expensive solar prices in the developed world. Don't get me started on Healthcare (I just moved back to the U.S. a couple years ago after 18 years in Canada, what a cluster*ck). Oil and gas buy politicians, foreign oil money buys media influence, and social-media bots keep voters angry at…

If even a Democratically-led California is doing this, how can you point fingers at just the GOP? It's endemic to the system, and not restricted to just one party.

Republicans are always trying to increase and protect oil subsidizes, cheer "drill baby drill", and have social media tools peddling their bs who are funded by foreign influence campaigns. The Democats may not be perfect, but they are much more likely to cut oil subsidies or at least subsidize solar and other renewables to balance. This is especially true as the next generation takes over by primarying the tepid fossils currently in office. Meanwhile, dear leader Dumpty likes to suggest windmills cause cancer because he doesn't like what they look like on the horizon of his golf dumps. Saying this is a "both sides" problem is laughable.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#370

Post by direwolf20 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #313
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can skip paying those, if you stop living in society, many done that before, and it is still possible. Actually, generally speaking this is almost certainly not possible for more than short periods of time.

It certainly is possible, people do it all the time, in various countries. Most of the time we call them "homeless", but also there are people who literally set up camp in the forest then stay there, it isn't unheard of. The book "The Stranger in the Woods" is one such case, about a man who lived in the woods for 27 years by himself. That said, it isn't easy, and it's harder in some countries than others, but I'd sti…

And they still benefit from taxes.
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