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In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

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Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#321

Post by Moldoteck »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #311
coredev_ wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear that was built a long time ago would probably have lowered the prices in DE right now, if they weren't shut down. I understand that building new ones right now makes little sense.

Only if it the nuclear didn't need refurbished to keep running. France and Canada are currently estimating costs to refurb old nuclear that are higher then new build renewables.

Refurb costs are for the entire fleet which is 50+GW and are in fact dirt cheap. Refurbs are in 1-3bn/unit range. CF of say solar in this region is roughly 10-12%. To have same average output as a single 1GW npp you would need about 10GW solar and much more if you want to achieve firm generation. French refurbs will happen anyway. In fact, carenage is already undergoing.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#322

Post by SamPatt »

earlyriser wrote: post #318
SamPatt wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm a renter, been all my life, I'd be happy to pay more in taxes if it means more solar panels for everyone except me. That's because you're rich like most people on HN. Environmental protection is a luxury good. This has been proven time and time again. A great reason to prioritize growth and wealth creation. Poor countries don't make those tradeoffs, they're worried about survival not what percentage of their ene…

Poor countries are switching to solar: https://climatedrift.substack.com/p/why-solarpunk-is-already...

Yes, and it's wonderful to see. As the article itself explains, this isn't due to government led redistribution of wealth anymore:

> The 20th century infrastructure model was:

> Centralized generation

> Government-led

> Megaproject financing

> 30-year timelines

>Monopolistic utilities

> The 21st century infrastructure model is:

> Distributed/modular

> Private sector-led

> PAYG financing

> Deploy in days/weeks

> Competitive markets

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#323

Post by adrianN »

sp4cec0wb0y wrote: post #166
mrks_hy wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have it backwards. At the current cost curve for renewables and storage, Nuclear will never again be able to compete. See: the overly optimistic SMR plans being predictably scrapped in many places. What you do have is ample land to build out solar and export eg. Ammonia (made out of Hydrogen) for "free" energy.

Correct me if I am wrong but the only reason nuclear is expensive is because of how costly the facilities are to build and maintain. If we were not setback during the anti-nuclear era, we would have gained economies of scale. The reason why solar is so cheap is for the exact same reason is it not? I am not an expert on this topic so take everything I say with a massive grain of salt as I am willing to be wrong on thi…

Power plants with high capex like nuclear have a hard time competing in a market where power is essentially free when it’s sunny or windy. Running something like a nuclear power plant only for a few hundred hours a year when it’s neither sunny nor windy is too expensive compared to (hydrogen) gas peakers (or other forms of storage)

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#324

Post by triceratops »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #285
triceratops wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solar farm produces more energy per dollar spent. Rooftop solar is expensive. It produces comparatively fewer kw to amortize the fixed costs over - permitting, getting up on the roof etc. If a country has abundant land and expensive labor, the money is probably best spent improving grid transmission capacity and otherwise getting the f- out of the way of utility-scale renewables. Places like Pakistan, which is go…

OK, so rooftop solar is a higher /kW solar farm. That's one argument against it. On the other hand, it is also distributed which from some perspectives is a benefit, and is also do-able with very little planning and grid extension. So that's one argument for it. How things come out on balance depends a bit on what you value and how you imagine the future.

The generation is distributed. That only benefits the people who have panels on their rooftops. If we want them to share the excess with others during a power outage it requires further grid investment.

I think homeowners should install solar panels and batteries where it makes economic sense. If there's money left over after funding utility-scale solar then it should be used for EV incentives and/or funding electrified mass transit. The whole point is to electrify everything rapidly and reduce carbon emissions.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#325

Post by triceratops »

SamPatt wrote: post #317
triceratops wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada isn't poor.

Agreed. But there are poor people in Canada, and forcing them to pay more money (and slightly lowering their own quality of life) so that wealthier Canadians can install solar panels is, at least, a debatable policy.

Does Canada not have progressive taxation? How do poor people pay more than rich people?

To be clear, I don't think rooftop solar subsidies are the best use of government money either. Governments should subsidize utility-scale solar, EVs, efficient buildings, and mass transit. They should focus on cheaper and more efficient permitting, and better grids.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#327

Post by barney54 »

vondur wrote: post #278
dataviz1000 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. It would be worth including control of the people who vote for the politicians by direct investment such as when the oil producing Saudis bought the second largest stake in NewCorps which controls FoxNews controlling the content that influences voters. And, less than ethical control using bots on social media by Russia. A lo…

Here in California, they drastically cut back on the price that you get for solar powered electricity from homeowners. It used to be around $0.30/kWh at any time of day and now it's can drop to $0.00-$0.05/kWh during the day when the state is sunny. If you can afford to have a battery installed, the rates are far better as you can either run off the battery when rates are the highest in the evening, or you can export…

That’s because net metering is a transfer from people who can’t afford solar to the rich people who can. https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/2024/04/22/californias-ex...

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#328

Post by Moldoteck »

eigenspace wrote: post #248
Havoc wrote: post #140

Now we just need to figure out scalable storage. Ideally something like the sand batteries that you can scale with construction equipment rather than just adding more rows of tiny lithium batteries

The answer is likely going to have to be hydrogen, but there's a pretty difficult catch with hydrogen: it makes zero sense to invest in any hydrogen electricity storage infrastructure until the grid is already like 80+% renewable. There's simply no sense in turning electricity into hydrogen so that it could be used in 6 months (losing 50+% of the energy along the way as heat!) when you could just sell that electricit…

even in 10y h2 is economically unviable. Check out Norway/Sweden, they got tons of ren. Are they some _cheap_ H2 generation meccas? There are some chances for other synth fuels but H2 is just a pipedream

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#329

Post by WheatMillington »

testing22321 wrote: post #4

Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. It makes 7.72Mwh per year, worth $1000. Tight valley, tons of snow. We put that on the loan for 8 years, then get $1000 per year free money for 20 years or so. Biggest no brainer of all time. Dad in Victoria Australia just got 1…

It's criminal to not hand huge subsidies to people like you who are already likely well-off, so you can generate passive income for the rest of your life?

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#330

Post by Moldoteck »

p0pularopinion wrote: post #82
altern8 wrote: post #52

Well, OK--but at what cost? Electricity/heating and gasoline in the EU is many times more expensive than in the U.S., and as a result EVERYTHING is more expensive. Mix that with lower buying power and taxes and we spend 2-3 times for stuff. I would think that most people would happily choose lower prices over clean energy and paper straws. Our companies are also less and less competitive because of these initiatives,…

> Electricity/heating and gasoline in the EU is many times more expensive than in the U.S. Maybe because Europe as a whole has little to no signifcant oil reserves ready for extraction? Very much unlike the US. > I would think that most people would happily choose lower prices over clean energy and paper straws. The US does have plenty of cheap energy and yet its industrial output is dwarfed by Chinas, which is incre…

big part is co2 tax. EU now has neptune deep and could explore north sea too. In Germany current transition pathway of ren+gas and no nuclear was defined when Energiewende got introduced with red greens under Schroeder, a gazprom lover and later extended by red blacks
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