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EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

eu-inc.org

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Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#711

Post by dv_dt »

glimshe wrote: post #709
dv_dt wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were being pragmatic about it, the more universal healthcare systems offered by many EU nations should be a massive advantage for startups vs nations like the US, but the wrong regulations around company operations negates it or worse.

I didn't want to start a healthcare discussion but employer costs with healthcare in the US can be lower than Europe labor taxes. EmployEE costs is a different thing but many startups have young employees who don't need a whole lot of healthcare in general.

The employee healthcare costs don't count, so we can pretend that healthcare costs doesn't detract from performance or the ability to hire talent?

Serious cancers are on the rise among the young and the type of plans you allude to do not provide good coverage. And why limit startups to the young, or limit their ability to have a family? 40+ founders have a higher business success rate.

I think the US is having so many problems now because it wants to half-a** aspects of living that should be solid for false efficency.

Startups should be a voluntary fiscal risk, not a direct risk of life, limb, or family. That's also how you optimize for the success of the startup - by removing distractions and worries that are not directly in the startup proposition.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#712

Post by glimshe »

dv_dt wrote: post #711
glimshe wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't want to start a healthcare discussion but employer costs with healthcare in the US can be lower than Europe labor taxes. EmployEE costs is a different thing but many startups have young employees who don't need a whole lot of healthcare in general.

The employee healthcare costs don't count, so we can pretend that healthcare costs doesn't detract from performance or the ability to hire talent? Serious cancers are on the rise among the young and the type of plans you allude to do not provide good coverage. And why limit startups to the young, or limit their ability to have a family? 40+ founders have a higher business success rate. I think the US is having so man…

I'm not arguing which system is best. I'm just saying this isn't a big advantage for a lot of startups from a purely financial perspective, which was the original point.

Sure, one startup will go down because the young founder had cancer, but that's not common enough to skew the average case too much.

40+ founders like me often had an opportunity to save for healthcare costs with the high salaries in the US plus Obamacare.

It's a fact that people in the US create lots of startups. Maybe the system could be much better (still not comparing to Europe) but it isn't too bad to be honest.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#713

Post by sbacic »

egorfine wrote: post #183
academia_hack wrote: post #168

It's inordinately difficult and expensive to start an LLC or SA in some EU countries. It's even difficult and expensive to _stop_ an LLC and dissolve it. Huge amount of risk and cost on founders and a huge distraction from running a business. I think that EU-Inc _could_ be an improvement, but it needs to avoid the committee laundry list of ideas/requirements/form fields that plagues the EU startup ecosystem. My worry…

> a company should be able to register in x days Which EU bureaucrats will fully pass by treating this as "a company should be able to register in x days once the full set of documents has been collected".

Which in itself wouldn't even be a problem if lack of said documents caused your submission to automatically fail validation right at the start. Instead, a real, live person will need to review your request to verify that it indeed includes a full set of documents, said documents are genuine and "correct" (despite most of them already being issued by the government!) before approving your request.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#714

Post by sbacic »

wolvoleo wrote: post #482
WarmWash wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU has a borderline stagnant economy, couldn't defend itself from Russia, facing population collapse, totally whiffed on the tech scene explosion in the last 25 years, now also missing out on AI. European social obligations are expensive, yet nobody seems to really want to stress about creating new sources of wealth. At some point Europeans need to look in the mirror, and understand that the last 30 years has bee…

We can defend ourselves, it's just that the US didn't want a too-powerful Europe until trump. In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that. We'll have to scale this up now but it is not a big problem. Population collapse is a good thing. We already have too many people in this world, causing environmental and housing issues. We can't keep ever growing as humanity, stabilisation or even a reduction is very…

> Population collapse is a good thing.

Unless your welfare state depends on a growing population. Which is the case in many EU states.

I'd also argue that overpopulation is not a problem in Europe.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#715

Post by egorfine »

sbacic wrote: post #713
egorfine wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a company should be able to register in x days Which EU bureaucrats will fully pass by treating this as "a company should be able to register in x days once the full set of documents has been collected".

Which in itself wouldn't even be a problem if lack of said documents caused your submission to automatically fail validation right at the start. Instead, a real, live person will need to review your request to verify that it indeed includes a full set of documents, said documents are genuine and "correct" (despite most of them already being issued by the government!) before approving your request.

And given the founding principles of bureaucracy, no set of documents is ever correct because there are at least two contradictory regulations on any given topic.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#716

Post by Propelloni »

miroljub wrote: post #460
lifty wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your characterisation of what is going on, and at some point, the EU states will have to decide for full fiscal integration or for removing the common currency. You can't have a common currency without a common fiscal union. So we either have to integrate more or desintegrate more, this inbetween we have now is not working very well. Speaking as a European, not sure what is better.

Not related to the comment, but in general I agree with you. You can't have a single monetary system without complete unification, including tax systems, budgeting systems, governance models, retirement systems, benefits. I mean, you can, like we have now, but it's not sustainable, and eventually we all have it worse. As a European, I would not want to go that way, since I'm afraid such a unified EU will be a bureauc…

Even more centralized than the USA? That must be an outsider's view. You are aware that each state has its own tax laws? Corporate laws? Even criminal laws and traffic laws? And so on? Obviously there is federal law, too, but that's more of an umbrella covering all states in addition to local laws. The USA is a federation, just like Germany, Switzerland, or Austria are federations, and one common complaint you get out of these nations all the time is that they are not centralized enough!

The EU, on the other hand, is not a federation, it is a association of nations trying to figure out how to go together, be it as a federation or something different, because in today's world you need size and power to survive. Any EU state alone would be insignificant on the world stage and being sidelined one way or the other. The most powerful inside the EU would suffer the most, e.g. Germany or France, because while the EU is second or third on many metrics, the individual nations are small. Depending on which ranking you look at, the EU is just behind the USA in military and economic power, sometimes it is behind China in economy, too.

The strongest individual economic power of the EU is Germany, which globally usually comes in 4th place after the USA, China, and the EU as a whole. But this is deceiving, when you look at the absolute numbers. Germany's output is impressive for its size, but is still only about a quarter of China's! Germany alone is a dwarf and without the EU would be inconsequential. The post-Brexit UK is just learning this the hard way and all the sovereignity does not matter a damn. The top leadership of EU nations are not stupid, even if they could explain their reasoning better, and thus try to keep the EU going, despite its many flaws.

This is a Chesterton's Fence situation.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#717

Post by causalscience »

neximo64 wrote: post #684
causalscience wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU is saying "we'll make it work", replying "can't work because that's how the EU is designed" doesn't seem like an intelligent response.

Looking at it on vibes is not intelligent either. The design of the EU is based on a foundation where other than the EU institutions themselves the founding legal entity must sit within a member state. EU law that is one each country must replicate, there is no such way to have EU wide law without each and every member state replicating it entirely. An entity that is supranational cannot exist outside this construct…

> The design of the EU is based on a foundation where other than the EU institutions themselves the founding legal entity must sit within a member state.

You don't get it.

You're arguing it's not possible on the basis of the law. I'm saying the people you make the law are saying they'll make it happen. Get it?

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#718

Post by bux93 »

neximo64 wrote: post #683
bux93 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. Seems to work for Airbus, Allianz, BASF, E.ON, Fresenius, LVMH Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton (and its subsidiary Dior), SAP, Schneider Electric, TotalEnergies, Unibail-Rodamco-Westfield and Vonovia. Of course, that's the existing pan-European SE which is a public company. Needs like a few sentences changed in the existing regulation to extend that to private companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_Euro…

This is very different. In a SE these are incorporated and sponsored by the member state. It is like each country making an equivalent copy of the same thing. The EU-INC is EU designated without a sponsor, which is not permissible under EU law other than for the EU institutions themselves. This is one of the red lines for the design of the EU legally speaking

An SE is incorporated under EU law, and it has a headoffice registered in a member state - and that registration can be moved to another member state. Like GDPR, the relevant law is an EU "regulation" and not a directive. Directives need to be implemented in local laws, regulations apply directly (local laws may fill in details as long as they don't contradict or restrict the regulation, except of course where the regulation explicitely allows derogation). https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

What do you mean by "sponsored by the member state"? Can you point to the exact regulation, treaty or directive that imposes this requirement?

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#719

Post by M2Ys4U »

lava_pidgeon wrote: post #263
matesz wrote: post #216

My Dear German friends, please accept that EU-inc is a massive boost for EU competitiveness. Continuing to block progress here only proves that the EU is good at making promises on paper but fails to deliver real change. The reason this "28th regime" actually works—and bypasses the previous vetos — is that it’s optional. It doesn’t try to force Germany to change its local GmbH laws or kill the notary system overnight…

This idea was made by French and German government . I'm not sure why do you think the German government is against it.

The last time pan-European private companies (SPEs) were seriously proposed (2008) opposition from the German government blocked the proposals, the idea limped along until finally being ditched in 2014 after disputes in the European Parliament about worker representation on boards.

SPEs were supposed to follow on from SEs (public companies, introduced in 2004) and SCEs (cooperative societies, introduced in 2006).

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#720

Post by M2Ys4U »

Nemo_bis wrote: post #514

The first point already exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_Europaea The second point is dubious. A central registry may be better or worse than the best national registry. The third and fourth are what is usually called the Capital Markets Union in eurobubble speak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Markets_Union The Draghi report had some specific proposals which are rather realistic: > Reduce capita…

>The first point already exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_Europaea

SEs are public companies, and must have at least €120k in capital during formation.

The proposed EU Inc. will be for private companies with no capital requirements.

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