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EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

eu-inc.org

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Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#671

Post by alephnerd »

notahacker wrote: post #664
alephnerd wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's one perspective, another is that US is 20-40 years behind Europe [...] The US's HDI (0.938) is comparable to New Zealand and Liechtenstein [0], and significantly above Austria's (0.930), France's (0.920), and Italy's (0.915) [0], and the EU's HDI is itself 0.915 [1] - this puts the EU roughly in the same position as the US almost 16-17 years ago [2] despite both having a similar population. That said, once y…

Differences once you break the 0.9 range are more noticeable at the bottom end, particularly in the context of the OP's claim about people in the US "struggling to stay alive". There's also an "inequality weighted" HDI (accessible from your HDR link above by drilling down to the individual country data) which puts the US a fair way behind many of the EU countries the sheer weight of its per capita GDP puts it ahead o…

Even then the US is comparable to France - the only European country that comes even remotely close to America's power projection capabilities - and significantly above Italy, a fellow G7 member and large EU member that also has power projections capabilities.

The only large European countries with a significantly better iHDI are Germany and the UK.

All this does is justify the fact that most EU member states have taken advantage of the peace dividend at the expense of countries that have heavily invested in defense capabilities like the US, France, and Italy which fuels anti-European sentiment that turned into the current diplomatic crisis.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#672

Post by egorfine »

p0pularopinion wrote: post #633
egorfine wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know that EU bureaucrats do what each country want them to do right? I'n not entirely sure about that. The vast majority of entrepreneurs are complaining about unrealistic requirements and inconceivable burdens in Germany. Certainly no one wants any of this. Yet somehow the rules pile up.

> Certainly no one wants any of this. Yet somehow the rules pile up. Haha. May I introduce you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Reform_Movement German precision was not only about engineering, it has always also been about having a precisely defined bureaucratic process for everything. Also, people never explicitly say they do want more bureaucracy. More often, the bureaucracy is more often a result of what…

> precisely defined bureaucratic process for everything

Which is extremely similar to communism. As in: perfect in theory, impossible in real life.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#673

Post by jaggirs »

sschueller wrote: post #469
academia_hack wrote: post #168

It's inordinately difficult and expensive to start an LLC or SA in some EU countries. It's even difficult and expensive to _stop_ an LLC and dissolve it. Huge amount of risk and cost on founders and a huge distraction from running a business. I think that EU-Inc _could_ be an improvement, but it needs to avoid the committee laundry list of ideas/requirements/form fields that plagues the EU startup ecosystem. My worry…

I agree on application costs to be less but I believe a company needs to bring some capital. In Switzerland you need to pony up 20k in startup capital for a GmbH or 100k for an AG (ignoring the 50k work around), it belongs to the company but guarantees some security for customers and vendors that you aren't just going to take their money and run. In Switzerland you don't even need to collect VAT until you make at lea…

You can pony up however much money you want and show customers the founding document that says the amount the company was started with. I believe it's usually publically available even.

Forcing certain minimum amounts is just arbitrary gatekeeping and prevents companies that don't need that 'trust' and don't have the money from being created.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#674

Post by belter »

codingcodingboy wrote: post #645
belter wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoid Luxembourg like the plague unless you are a company like Amazon. And even them are making a massive mistake form a governance and risk management point of view of being based there. But they have their tax deal...

Can you explain why?

Where should I start... :-)

- They are optimized for Big funds, Holding structures and Multinationals If you are a bootstrapper, or small company or any early stage startup, the ecosystem works against you.

- Setup costs are absurdly high if you include Notary around plus possibly Lawyer, Bank onboarding plus accounting you are looking at burning €10k to €20k easily before making a cent.

- The scourge of the state Fonctionnaires. Untouchables and incredibly well paid state employees. One told me would take care of my long delayed VAT returns... AFTER they would return from their long summer holidays in Switzerland ...

- It only works if you have some special deal like the famous Mr Marius Kohl also known as Monsieur Ruling used to do... "Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg" https://www.icij.org/investigations/luxembourg-leaks/leaked-...

- Banks will treat you like a criminal by default and assume, you are laundering money, or hiding taxes and you are compliance risk. They have extreme KYC requirements, and do account freezes for trivial reasons.

- Accounting is rigid, expensive, and slow. Taxes are not low in practice. On paper, it all looks good, but in reality they have the Corporate tax and municipal tax. Many complex withholding rules and limited deductions unless structured perfectly.

- The legal system is slow and formal. Everything takes a lot of time and a LOT of paperwork with more costly intermediaries. Small changes like directors, statutes will force Notary, Formal filings, Delays.

- The ecosystem is completely closed and relationship driven and the few startups like Talkwalker and Doctena are coming and financed from local families. Luxembourg runs completely on local networks and specially reputation over merit. If you are not local, from finance, or law or government circles you are invisible.

- Incredibly promiscuous relationships between the banks, law and legal professions, with a permanent revolving door between local companies and banks management and government officials. We are talking about less than just a few hundred people. This means Luxembourgeois families with long term historical relationships. Good luck on any legal or business dispute between you...and a local, who is a cousin from the local judge or government official....

I have had the chance of setting up and running companies in many countries. Specifically for Europe, currently I would suggest as two best options right now: Estonia and the Netherlands. Avoid France, Luxembourg and definitely avoid Germany.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#675

Post by mlunar »

cowl wrote: post #647
wolvoleo wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we still work. Just want some continuity. Not working for a company without direction chasing the latest fad and dumping everyone if it doesn't work out, but a good company with a decent business plan.

Is someone forcing you to work at a company chasing the latest fad? You go and choose the type of company you want. The keyword here being "Choice". There are plenty of workers that would not mind carring a little more risk in those companies for better pay, and those companies could offer better pay if not made to jump through loops. Classic Example is the "Consultant" contracts. Companies are paying through their n…

You are thinking of the continuity of work, colleagues, and responsibilities. Those are of course good to have, especially from the perspective of the company.

But from the perspective of the individual worker, a much more important continuity is the one of salary, insurance, and pension. This is the stability that the employee continues getting at Company D.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#676

Post by 47282847 »

cm2012 wrote: post #464
47282847 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Company formation in Germany requires identity and statute checks by a notary. You can nowadays do that remotely via video appointment but it’s still a bit of a hassle and delay. It’s not as bad as people claim, or rather: if people already have difficulties with that step I wonder how much fun they will have with “bureaucracy” later on. Frankly, I understand how one can be annoyed at certain requirements but how do…

Friction is a death by 1000 cuts. Its a week here, an in person appointment there, another 2 weeks to send in a different ID - all of that adds up to an environment where people are reluctant to do anything new.

I have personally founded multiple successful German companies and non-profits, and have advised dozens in doing so, and yeah I really don’t mind if those that are reluctant because of one appointment to not start whatever grand business idea they might have, and doubt that they will make it elsewhere. Not everyone with (maybe) good ideas is made to run a business.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#677

Post by notahacker »

alephnerd wrote: post #671
notahacker wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Differences once you break the 0.9 range are more noticeable at the bottom end, particularly in the context of the OP's claim about people in the US "struggling to stay alive". There's also an "inequality weighted" HDI (accessible from your HDR link above by drilling down to the individual country data) which puts the US a fair way behind many of the EU countries the sheer weight of its per capita GDP puts it ahead o…

Even then the US is comparable to France - the only European country that comes even remotely close to America's power projection capabilities - and significantly above Italy, a fellow G7 member and large EU member that also has power projections capabilities. The only large European countries with a significantly better iHDI are Germany and the UK. All this does is justify the fact that most EU member states have ta…

Interesting segue from claiming Europe is 20-40 years behind the US to claiming if Europe's policy choices have resulted in any better outcomes than the US its because they're enriching themselves by taking advantage of the "peace dividend"! I guess I'd have to agree that in the current diplomatic crisis of America's making, there is literally nothing some Americans won't use to "justify" blaming it on Europe....

Back in reality, inequality doesn't have an obvious relationship with country size or power projection, countries with superior inequality-weighted HDI like Germany and Poland spend more of their GDP on defence than Italy and the strengths and weaknesses of America's business culture, labour laws, welfare state, privatised healthcare etc (higher incomes for many but lower baseline living standards) really don't have very much to do with its military spending. If Americans want their government to tackle inequality they should probably back candidates advocating European-style policy over candidates advocating anti-European sentiment.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#678

Post by ErikBjare »

academia_hack wrote: post #168

It's inordinately difficult and expensive to start an LLC or SA in some EU countries. It's even difficult and expensive to _stop_ an LLC and dissolve it. Huge amount of risk and cost on founders and a huge distraction from running a business. I think that EU-Inc _could_ be an improvement, but it needs to avoid the committee laundry list of ideas/requirements/form fields that plagues the EU startup ecosystem. My worry…

Those requirements should include "estimated setup & recurring administrative costs for businesses of size x to comply should be lower than y" in some way.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#679

Post by ragall »

notahacker wrote: post #677
alephnerd wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then the US is comparable to France - the only European country that comes even remotely close to America's power projection capabilities - and significantly above Italy, a fellow G7 member and large EU member that also has power projections capabilities. The only large European countries with a significantly better iHDI are Germany and the UK. All this does is justify the fact that most EU member states have ta…

Interesting segue from claiming Europe is 20-40 years behind the US to claiming if Europe's policy choices have resulted in any better outcomes than the US its because they're enriching themselves by taking advantage of the "peace dividend"! I guess I'd have to agree that in the current diplomatic crisis of America's making, there is literally nothing some Americans won't use to "justify" blaming it on Europe.... Bac…

> Interesting segue from claiming Europe is 20-40 years behind the US to claiming if Europe's policy choices have resulted in any better outcomes than the US its because they're enriching themselves by taking advantage of the "peace dividend"!

That's not what I claimed. Europe is 20-40 years behind in how the social fabric is being destroyed, making everything precarious and lives shitty, stressful and meaningless. Many good choices in Europe have slowed down that decay, but I'm afraid it's just slowed, not arrested.

And it's not so much as the "peace dividend" helping Europe, but the opposite: the US have made themselves poor because with the same economic framework as today, the US would be in a much better position if it had an efficient healthcare system, instead of one that spends 2-3x the European average for worse outcomes, and if it didn't drive up the cost of living by allowing boomers to print themselves money by restricting housing construction though zoning.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#680

Post by anonzzzies »

jan_Inkepa wrote: post #589
jandrewrogers wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's even difficult and expensive to _stop_ an LLC and dissolve it. In my experience this is at least as important. Everyone focuses on the process of creating companies, which is now relatively streamlined in many European countries. The real, massive difference between the US and EU is how hard it is to shutdown a company and the legal implications of that. I was shocked at how unreasonably slow and painful it ca…

I've been told by a lawyer that a common sensible step in closing companies in Germany is to first...reseat the company in the UK ... (at least pre-brexit - not sure if things have changed). Think of how bad and expensive the process has to be for this extra step to be worthwhile.

I have been trying to close a UK company for the past 2 years (created post brexit).

And reseat, as others say, is not as easy; the gravity of decision making has to be in the country of incorporation; if your main shareholders and directors are physically in Germany and you reseat the company to where-ever, Germany is going to see and act like this is a de-facto German company. Hence you gain nothing, you get more paper work.

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