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Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

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Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#41

I use CBZ to archive both physical and digital comic books so I was interested in the idea of an improved container format, but the claimed improvements here don't make sense. --- For example they make a big deal about each archive entry being aligned to a 4 KiB boundary "allowing for DirectStorage transfers directly from disk to GPU memory", but the pages within a CBZ are going to be encoded (JPEG/PNG/etc) rather th…

> the pages within a CBZ are going to be encoded (JPEG/PNG/etc) rather than just being bitmaps. They need to be decoded first, the GPU isn't going to let you create a texture directly from JPEG data. It seems that JPEG can be decoded on the GPU [1] [2] > CRC32 is limited by memory bandwidth if you're using a normal (i.e. SIMD) implementation. According to smhasher tests [3] CRC32 is not limited by memory bandwidth. E…

Maybe the CRC32 implementations in the smasher suite just aren't that fast?

[1] claims 15 GB/s for the slowest implementation (Chromium) they compared (all vectorized).

> The 32 bit hash of CRC32 is too low for file checksums. xxhash is definitely an improvement over CRC32.

Why? What kind of error rate do you expect, and what kind of reliability do you want to achieve? Assumptions that would lead to a >32bit checksum requirement seem outlandish to me.

[1] https://github.com/corsix/fast-crc32?tab=readme-ov-file#x86_...

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the pages within a CBZ are going to be encoded (JPEG/PNG/etc) rather than just being bitmaps. They need to be decoded first, the GPU isn't going to let you create a texture directly from JPEG data. It seems that JPEG can be decoded on the GPU [1] [2] > CRC32 is limited by memory bandwidth if you're using a normal (i.e. SIMD) implementation. According to smhasher tests [3] CRC32 is not limited by memory bandwidth. E…

> The 32 bit hash of CRC32 is too low for file checksums. What makes you say this? I agree that there are better algorithms than CRC32 for this usecase, but if I was implementing something I'd most likely still truncate the hash to somewhere in the same ballpark (likely either 32, 48, or 64 bits). Note that the purpose of the hash is important. These aren't being used for deduplication where you need a guaranteed uni…

I've seen few arguments that with the amount of data we have today the 2^(32-1) chance can happen, but I can't vouch their calculations were done correctly.

Readme in SMHasher test suite also seems to indicate that 32 bits might be too few for file checksums:

"Hash functions for symbol tables or hash tables typically use 32 bit hashes, for databases, file systems and file checksums typically 64 or 128bit, for crypto now starting with 256 bit."

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#43

I use CBZ to archive both physical and digital comic books so I was interested in the idea of an improved container format, but the claimed improvements here don't make sense. --- For example they make a big deal about each archive entry being aligned to a 4 KiB boundary "allowing for DirectStorage transfers directly from disk to GPU memory", but the pages within a CBZ are going to be encoded (JPEG/PNG/etc) rather th…

> the pages within a CBZ are going to be encoded (JPEG/PNG/etc) rather than just being bitmaps. They need to be decoded first, the GPU isn't going to let you create a texture directly from JPEG data. It seems that JPEG can be decoded on the GPU [1] [2] > CRC32 is limited by memory bandwidth if you're using a normal (i.e. SIMD) implementation. According to smhasher tests [3] CRC32 is not limited by memory bandwidth. E…

  > It seems that JPEG can be decoded on the GPU [1] [2]
Sure, but you wouldn't want to. Many algorithms can be executed on a GPU via CUDA/ROCm, but the use cases for on-GPU JPEG/PNG decoding (mostly AI model training? maybe some sort of giant megapixel texture?) are unrelated to anything you'd use CBZ for.

For a comic book the performance-sensitive part is loading the current and adjoining pages, which can be done fast enough to appear instant on the CPU. If the program does bulk loading then it's for thumbnail generation which would also be on the CPU.

Loading compressed comic pages directly to the GPU would be if you needed to ... I dunno, have some sort of VR library browser? It's difficult to think of a use case.

  > According to smhasher tests [3] CRC32 is not limited by memory bandwidth.
  > Even if we multiply CRC32 scores x4 (to estimate 512 bit wide SIMD from 128
  > bit wide results), we still don't get close to memory bandwidth.
Your link shows CRC32 at 7963.20 MiB/s (~7.77 GiB/s) which indicates it's either very old or isn't measuring pure CRC32 throughput (I see stuff about the C++ STL in the logs).

Look at https://github.com/corsix/fast-crc32 for example, which measures 85 GB/s (GB, GiB, eh close enough) on the Apple M1. That's fast enough that I'm comfortable calling it limited by memory bandwidth on real-world systems. Obviously if you solder a Raspberry Pi to some GDDR then the ratio differs.

  > The 32 bit hash of CRC32 is too low for file checksums. xxhash is definitely
  > an improvement over CRC32.
You don't want to use xxhash (or crc32, or cityhash, ...) for checksums of archived files, that's not what they're designed for. Use them as the key function for hash tables. That's why their output is 32- or 64-bits, they're designed to fit into a machine integer.

File checksums don't have the same size limit so it's fine to use 256- or 512-bit checksum algorithms, which means you're not limited to xxhash.

  > Why would you need to use a cryptographic hash function to check integrity
  > of archived files? Quality a non-cryptographic hash function will detect
  > corruptions due to things like bit-rot, bad RAM, etc. just the same.
I have personally seen bitrot and network transmission errors that were not caught by xxhash-type hash functions, but were caught by higher-level checksums. The performance properties of hash functions used for hash table keys make those same functions less appropriate for archival.

  > And why is 256 bits needed here? Kopia developers, for example, think 128
  > bit hashes are big enough for backup archives [4].
The checksum algorithm doesn't need to be cryptographically strong, but if you're using software written in the past decade then SHA256 is supported everywhere by everything so might as well use it by default unless there's a compelling reason not to.

For archival you only need to compute the checksums on file transfer and/or periodic archive scrubbing, so the overhead of SHA256 vs SHA1/MD5 doesn't really matter.

I don't know what kopia is, but according to your link it looks like their wire protocol involves each client downloading a complete index of the repository content, including a CAS identifier for every file. The semantics would be something like Git? Their list of supported algorithms looks reasonable (blake, sha2, sha3) so I wouldn't have the same concerns as I would if they were using xxhash or cityhash.

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#44
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was benchmarked with AI. Benchmarks being the main reason for this thing existing...

I mean, its open source so people can create benchmark and independently verify if the AI was wrong and then have the claims be passed to the author. I haven't read the reddit thread or anything but If the author coded it by hand or is passionate about this project, he will probably understand what we are talking about. But I don't believe its such a big deal to have a benchmark be written by AI though? no?

Why would someone spend their time checking someone else's AI slop when that person couldn't even be bothered to write the basic checks that prove their project was worthwhile?

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the pages within a CBZ are going to be encoded (JPEG/PNG/etc) rather than just being bitmaps. They need to be decoded first, the GPU isn't going to let you create a texture directly from JPEG data. It seems that JPEG can be decoded on the GPU [1] [2] > CRC32 is limited by memory bandwidth if you're using a normal (i.e. SIMD) implementation. According to smhasher tests [3] CRC32 is not limited by memory bandwidth. E…

Maybe the CRC32 implementations in the smasher suite just aren't that fast? [1] claims 15 GB/s for the slowest implementation (Chromium) they compared (all vectorized). > The 32 bit hash of CRC32 is too low for file checksums. xxhash is definitely an improvement over CRC32. Why? What kind of error rate do you expect, and what kind of reliability do you want to achieve? Assumptions that would lead to a >32bit checksum…

From SMHasher test results quality of xxhash seems higher. It has less bias / higher uniformity that CRC.

What bothers me with probability calculations, is that they always assume perfect uniformity. I've never seen any estimates how bias affects collision probability and how to modify the probability formula to account for non-perfect uniformity of a hash function.

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 32 bit hash of CRC32 is too low for file checksums. What makes you say this? I agree that there are better algorithms than CRC32 for this usecase, but if I was implementing something I'd most likely still truncate the hash to somewhere in the same ballpark (likely either 32, 48, or 64 bits). Note that the purpose of the hash is important. These aren't being used for deduplication where you need a guaranteed uni…

I've seen few arguments that with the amount of data we have today the 2^(32-1) chance can happen, but I can't vouch their calculations were done correctly. Readme in SMHasher test suite also seems to indicate that 32 bits might be too few for file checksums: "Hash functions for symbol tables or hash tables typically use 32 bit hashes, for databases, file systems and file checksums typically 64 or 128bit, for crypto…

That's vaguely describing common practices, not what's actually necessary or why. It also doesn't address my note that the purpose of the hash is important. Are "file systems" and "file checksums" referring to globally unique handles, content addressed tables, detection of bitrot, or something else?

For detecting file corruption the amount of data alone isn't the issue. Rather what matters is the rate at which corruption events occur. If I have 20 TiB of data and experience corruption at a rate of only 1 event per TiB per year (for simplicity assume each event occurs in a separate file) that's only 20 events per year. I don't know about you but I'm not worried about the false negative rate on that at 32 bits. And from personal experience that hypothetical is a gross overestimation of real world corruption rates.

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the CRC32 implementations in the smasher suite just aren't that fast? [1] claims 15 GB/s for the slowest implementation (Chromium) they compared (all vectorized). > The 32 bit hash of CRC32 is too low for file checksums. xxhash is definitely an improvement over CRC32. Why? What kind of error rate do you expect, and what kind of reliability do you want to achieve? Assumptions that would lead to a >32bit checksum…

From SMHasher test results quality of xxhash seems higher. It has less bias / higher uniformity that CRC. What bothers me with probability calculations, is that they always assume perfect uniformity. I've never seen any estimates how bias affects collision probability and how to modify the probability formula to account for non-perfect uniformity of a hash function.

It doesn't matter, though. xxhash is better than crc32 for hashing keys in a hash table, but both of them are inappropriate for file checksums -- especially as part of a data archival/durability strategy.

It's not obvious to me that per-page checksums in an archive format for comic books are useful at all, but if you really wanted them for some reason then crc32 (fast, common, should detect bad RAM or a decoder bug) or sha256 (slower, common, should detect any change to the bitstream) seem like reasonable choices and xxhash/xxh3 seems like LARPing.

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#48
post #10

Honest question, something I don't understand, if you use DirectStorage to move images directly to the GPU (I assume into the VRAM) where the decoding take place? directly on the GPU? Can GPU decode PNG? it is very unfriendly format for GPU as far as I know

From the readme: > Note: DirectStorage isn't avaliable for images yet (as far as I know), but I've made sure to accomodate such a thing in the future with this format. So the whole DirectStorage thing is just a nothingburger. The author glosses over the fact that decoding images on GPU is not possible (or at least very impractical).

The note was added after I posted the question. It really didn't make any sense to me

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the pages within a CBZ are going to be encoded (JPEG/PNG/etc) rather than just being bitmaps. They need to be decoded first, the GPU isn't going to let you create a texture directly from JPEG data. It seems that JPEG can be decoded on the GPU [1] [2] > CRC32 is limited by memory bandwidth if you're using a normal (i.e. SIMD) implementation. According to smhasher tests [3] CRC32 is not limited by memory bandwidth. E…

> It seems that JPEG can be decoded on the GPU [1] [2] Sure, but you wouldn't want to. Many algorithms can be executed on a GPU via CUDA/ROCm, but the use cases for on-GPU JPEG/PNG decoding (mostly AI model training? maybe some sort of giant megapixel texture?) are unrelated to anything you'd use CBZ for. For a comic book the performance-sensitive part is loading the current and adjoining pages, which can be done fas…

> which can be done fast enough to appear instant on the CPU

Big scanned PDFs can be problfrom more efficient processing (if it had HW support for such technique)

> Your link shows CRC32 at 7963.20 MiB/s (~7.77 GiB/s) which indicates it's either very old or isn't measuring pure CRC32 throughput

It may not be fastest implementation of CRC32, but it's also done on old Ryzen 5 3350G 3.6GHz. Below the table are results done on different HW. On Intel i7-6820HQ CRC32 achieves 27.6 GB/s.

> measures 85 GB/s (GB, GiB, eh close enough) on the Apple M1. That's fast enough that I'm comfortable calling it limited by memory bandwidth on real-world systems.

That looks incredibly suspicious since Apple M1 has maximum memory bandwidth of 68.25 GB/s [1].

> I have personally seen bitrot and network transmission errors that were not caught by xxhash-type hash functions, but were caught by higher-level checksums. The performance properties of hash functions used for hash table keys make those same functions less appropriate for archival.

Your argument is meaningless without more details. xxhash supports 128 bits, which I doubt wouldn't be able to catch an error in you case.

SHA256 is an order of magnitude or more slower than non-cryptographic hashes. In my experience archival process usually has big enough effect on performance to care about it.

I'm beginning to suspect your primary reason for disliking xxhash is because it's not de facto standard like CRC or SHA. I agree that this is a big one, but you constantly imply like there's more to why xxhash is bad. Maybe my knowledge is lacking, care to explain? Why wouldn't 128 bit xxhash be more than enough for checksums of files. AFAIK the only thing it doesn't do is protect you against tampering.

> I don't know what kopia is, but according to your link it looks like their wire protocol involves each client downloading a complete index of the repository content, including a CAS identifier for every file. The semantics would be something like Git? Their list of supported algorithms looks reasonable (blake, sha2, sha3) so I wouldn't have the same concerns as I would if they were using xxhash or cityhash.

Kopia uses hashes for block level deduplication. What would be an issue, if they used 128 bit xxhash instead of 128 bit cryptographic hash like they do now (if we assume we don't need to protection from tampering)?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1

Re: Libbbf: Bound Book Format, A high-performance container for comics and manga

#50

"Native Data Deduplication" not supported in CBZ/CBR? But those are just ZIP/RAR, which are compression formats, deduplication is their whole deal...?

They may be referring to the fact that ZIP compresses each file individually. It can't compress across files. I think RAR does compress across files though.
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