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The recurring dream of replacing developers

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Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#371
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People really look through rose-colored glasses when they talk about late 90s, early 2000s or whenever is their "back then" when they talk about everything being simpler. Everything was for sure simpler, but also the requirements and expectations were much, much lower. Tech and complexity moved forward with goal posts also moving forward. Just one example on reliability, I remember popular websites with many thousand…

> Everything was for sure simpler, but also the requirements and expectations were much, much lower. This. In the early 2000s, almost every day after school (3PM ET) Facebook.com was basically unusable. The request would either hang for minutes before responding at 1/10th of the broadband speed at that time, or it would just timeout. And that was completely normal. Also... - MySpace literally let you inject HTML, CSS…

I worked at an ISP in 1999 and between 8-11 PM we would simply disconnect the longest connected user once the phone banks were full. Obviously we oversubscribed.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#372
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “We’ve seen this before and it didn’t happen” is not analysis. It’s selective pattern matching used when the conclusion feels safe. > If you want to argue seriously, you have to start with ground truth. What is happening now. What the trendlines look like. What follows if those trendlines continue. Wait, so we can infer the future from "trendlines", but not from past events? Either past events are part of a macro t…

>Wait, so we can infer the future from “trendlines”, but not from past events? Either past events are part of a macro trend, and are valuable data points, or the micro data points you choose to focus on are unreliable as well. Talk about selection bias… If past events can be dismissed as “noise,” then so can selectively chosen counterexamples. Either historical outcomes are legitimate inputs into a broader signal, or…

> You cannot appeal to trendlines while arbitrarily discarding the very history that defines them without committing selection bias.

> When large numbers of analogous past events point in contradictory directions, individual anecdotes lose predictive power. Trendlines are not an oracle, but once the noise overwhelms the signal, they are the best approximation we have.

I'm confused. So you're agreeing with me, up until the very last part of the last sentence...? If the "noise overwhelms the signal", why are "trendlines the best approximation we have"? We have reliable data of past outcomes in similar scenarios, yet the most recent noisy data is the most valuable? Huh?

(Honestly, your comments read suspiciously like they were LLM-generated, as others have mentioned. It's like you're jumping on specific keywords and producing the most probable tokens without any thought about what you're saying. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for one more reply, though.)

To be fair, I think this new technology is fundamentally different from all previous attempts at abstracting software development. And I agree with you that past failures are not necessarily indicative that this one will fail as well. But it would be foolish to conclude anything about the value of this technology from the current state of the industry, when it should be obvious to anyone that we're in a bull market fueled by hype and speculation.

What you're doing is similar to speculative takes during the early days of the internet and WWW. How it would transform politics, end authoritarianism and disinformation, and bring the world together. When the dust settled after the dot-com crash, actual value of the technology became evident, and it turns out that none of the promises of social media became true. Quite the opposite, in fact. That early optimism vanished along the way.

The same thing happened with skepticism about the internet being a fad, that e-commerce would never work, and so on. Both groups were wrong.

> What skeptics keep doing is reciting known flaws while refusing to reason about what is no longer a limitation. At that point, the disagreement stops being about evidence and starts looking like bias.

Skepticism and belief are not binary states, but a spectrum. At extreme ends there are people who dismiss the technology altogether, and there are people who claim that the technology will cure diseases, end poverty, and bring world prosperity[1].

I think neither of these viewpoints are worth paying attention to. As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm leaning towards the skeptic side simply because the believers are far louder, more obnoxious, and have more to gain from pushing their agenda. The only sane position at this point is to evaluate the technology based on personal use, discuss your experience with other rational individuals, and wait for the hype to die down.

[1]: https://ai-2027.com/

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of an "other stuff"?

I once wrote software that had to manage the traffic coming into a major shipping terminal- OCR, gate arms, signage, cameras for inspecting chassis and containers, SIP audio comms, RFID readers, all of which needed to be reasoned about in a state machine, none of which were reliable. It required a lot of on the ground testing and observation and tweaking along with human interventions when things went wrong. I’d gues…

But you admit that fewer humans would be needed as “LLMs would have been good at subsets of that project”, so some impact already and these AI tools only get better.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#374

In the end, I think the dream underneath this dream is about being able to manifest things into reality without having to get into the details. The details are what stops it from working in every form it's been tried. You cannot escape the details. You must engage with them and solve them directly, meticulously. It's messy, it's extremely complicated and it's just plain hard. There is no level of abstraction that sav…

For me what supports this are things outside of software. If a company or regime wants to build something, they can't just say what they want and get exactly what they envision. If human minds can't figure out what other human wants, how could a computer do it?

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#375
There are dragons here. The hope, presumably, is to be able to describe a solution at a high level and have an AI figure out the details instead of a developer (or detail oriented) person. The problem I can see with this is ownership over those details, AI can't currently explain its reasoning or react too well to issues that crop up with its own previous decisions, since it's usually a 'fresh' instance for each prompt. In other words it might know how, but it can't know why. Or at least not without retracing every step every time.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#376
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your kitchen contractor an unthinking robot with no opinions or thoughts of their own that has never used a kitchen? Obviously if you want a specific cabinet to go in a specific place in the room, you're going to have to give the kitchen contractor specifics. But assuming your kitchen contractor isn't an utter moron, they can come up with something reasonable if they know it's supposed to be the kitchen. A sink, a…

You kitchen contractor will never cook in your kitchen. If you leave the decisions to them, you'll get something that's quick and easy to build, but it for sure won't have all the details that make a great kitchen. It will be average. Which seems like an apt analogy for software. I see people all the time who build systems and they don't care about the details. The results are always mediocre.

Most software, especially web software, is mediocre. LLMs are good at building web software.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#377
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is special about programming jobs that makes them permanently immune from the high skilled workers being in low demand

the specific tasks (i.e. writing code) might disappear but the actual work of constructing reliable systems from vague user requirements with an essentially unbounded resource (software) will exist

Of course this is true. Just like the need to travel long distances over land will never disappear.

The skills needed to be a useful horseman though have almost nothing to do with the skills needed to be a useful train conductor. Most the horseman skills don't really transfer other than being in the same domain of land travel. The horseman also has the problem that they have invested their life and identity into their skill with horses. It massively biases perspective. The person with no experience with horses actually has some huge advantages of the beginner mind in terms of travel by land at the advent of travel by rail.

The ad nauseam software engineer "horsemen" arguments on this board that there will always be the need to travel long distance by land completely misses the point IMO.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#378
post #363

In the end, I think the dream underneath this dream is about being able to manifest things into reality without having to get into the details. The details are what stops it from working in every form it's been tried. You cannot escape the details. You must engage with them and solve them directly, meticulously. It's messy, it's extremely complicated and it's just plain hard. There is no level of abstraction that sav…

To put an economic spin on this (that no one asked for), this is also the capitalist nirvana. I don't have an immediate citation but from my experience software engineer salary is usually one of the biggest items on a P&L which prevents the capitalist approaching the singularity: limitless profit margin. Obviously this is unachievable but one of the major obstacles to this is in the process of being destablised and d…

in the most profitable / high margin software industry, what other major costs are there?

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#379
post #44

As I have heard from mid level managers and C suite types across a few dev jobs. Staff are the largest expense and the technology department is the largest cost center. I disagree because Sales couldn't exist with a product but that's a lost point. This is why those same mid level managers and C suite people are salivating over AI and mentioning it in every press release. The reality is that costs are being reduced b…

> largest cost center. I disagree because Sales couldn't exist with a product but that's a lost point.

Execs know it well enough. It’s true by definition for all cost center - only reason to have them is to support sales

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#380

This resonates with what I'm experiencing, but I think the article misses the real shift happening now. The conversation shouldn't be "will AI replace developers". It should be "how do humans stay competitive as AI gets 10x better every 18 months?" I watched Claude Code build a feature in 30 minutes that used to take weeks. That moment crystallised something: you don't compete WITH AI. You need YOUR personal AI. Here…

What feature is it that Claude Code built in 30 minutes?

I have built many projects in hours that we can say would have reasonably taken me a month, to research the technology I did not know beforehand. 30 minutes is often enough to build a first version of the project. For example an audio book listener app, winter swimming iPhone/iWatch app combination, and markdown editor for OS X in Swift.

I have also added complex features in 30 minutes to existing projects, but I don't remember any that themselves would have taken me months though.

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