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East Germany balloon escape

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Re: East Germany balloon escape

#81

Post by martin-t »

tialaramex wrote: post #78
lukan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I am not sure if a lynchmob and more blood would have helped the transition. The main important thing to the people was, that the wall was down and Stasi (secret police) out of power. There has been prison time and the careers of anyone important connected to the Stasi ended.

It's a hard one. I can tell you something which doesn't work because the Americans have tried it twice so far. It won't work to say "Well, that was naughty, please don't do it again". That silliness is how you get Jim Crow, it's how you got Trump 2.0 In a civilized country I can believe jail time would be good enough, but the US still uses capital punishment, so seems to me that if you want to be taken seriously some…

> The accused are punished, sometimes even executed, without anything resembling due process.

I also don't like this but I wonder, if this is because the choice is between a) full punishment with less certainty of guilt now b) lenient or no punishment with high certainty of built later.

The ideal would be to hold those people until they can be tried and punished in an orderly fashion. And in principle all you need for this is enough food to keep them alive, though in such situations, even that might be a luxury.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#82

Post by martin-t »

mothballed wrote: post #47
martin-t wrote: post #20

One good metric of quality of life (which includes various freedoms) is how many people emigrate or immigrate. Anybody who defends authoritarians has to explain why so many people want to leave and why the regime wants to keep them in. (With some exceptions such as China which weaponizes emigrants by threatening their families.)

If that's the case the theocratic monarchy in UAE takes the cake, I think, although maybe there are similar amounts elsewhere. Pretty much all the highest % immigration countries are monarchy that I can think of, since in those country another tax payer is an easy win and immigrants that cause problem can be instantly booted so there is very little downside to taking anybody with $1 or a job who cares to come. Top Co…

That's a good point. Perhaps a better statistic would be people who want to emigrate or immigrate. We're introducing a bias by measuring only those who actually do.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#84

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

> Propane gas tanks became registered products

Ha. Someone does a thing and the state moves in to regulate. Same as it ever was, apparently.

Item registration… not used to prevent crime, just to make it easier to document after it happens.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#85

Post by immibis »

elzbardico wrote: post #66
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 to this! I wonder if some of the horror in it (the constant threat of the Stasi and its implications) translates well to non-German audiences. In case you're wondering about Germany's strict privacy laws - this is part of why they exist.

Probably this is an also big component in the notorious German preference for cash over cards.

That was caused by interchange fees, and it has disappeared now.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#86

Post by potato3732842 »

lukan wrote: post #24
martin-t wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dustpile of history, sure, but gallows first. Bleeding out on the pavement is also acceptable. Way too often, connected ("powerful") people manage to escape proper punishment, sometimes in the name of a "peaceful transition of power".

Hm. I am not sure if a lynchmob and more blood would have helped the transition. The main important thing to the people was, that the wall was down and Stasi (secret police) out of power. There has been prison time and the careers of anyone important connected to the Stasi ended.

You need "a little bit" of politician/judge/enforcer lynching to keep the government in line the same way they make a big show of "a little bit" of kicking in people's doors at 4am to keep the peasants in line.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#87

Post by immibis »

mothballed wrote: post #36
thenaturalist wrote: post #15

> East Germany immediately increased border security, closed all small airports close to the border, and ordered the planes kept farther inland.[6] Propane gas tanks became registered products, and large quantities of fabric suitable for balloon construction could no longer be purchased. Mail from East Germany to the two escaped families was prohibited.[12] > Erich Strelzyk learned of his brother's escape on the ZDF…

Depends on the form of authoritarian. The two of the richest countries on a GDP PPP basis are Lichtenstein and Singapore, also some of the most free economically, yet they could probably be described as benevolent authoritarian systems. Dubai further behind, although some similar points. It seems authoritarians that know how to use their authority to force the populace to accept (some forms of) freedom can perform be…

Aren't those just plain old tax havens?

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#88

Post by asdfman123 »

observationist wrote: post #42
mkmk wrote: post #5

The photo of the balloon here really helps put the story into perspective. https://web.archive.org/web/20190408181736/https://www.museu...

>Ballonfahrt in die Freiheit Gotta love the way German sounds to English ears. Always good for a chuckle. This guy is a hacker hero - do the engineering needed, get the proof of concept built, move fast, break things, start over and go big, then scores a victory over the commies and saves his family.

I enjoyed learning about the town of Bad Kissingen

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#89

Post by m4nu3l »

mothballed wrote: post #36
thenaturalist wrote: post #15

> East Germany immediately increased border security, closed all small airports close to the border, and ordered the planes kept farther inland.[6] Propane gas tanks became registered products, and large quantities of fabric suitable for balloon construction could no longer be purchased. Mail from East Germany to the two escaped families was prohibited.[12] > Erich Strelzyk learned of his brother's escape on the ZDF…

Depends on the form of authoritarian. The two of the richest countries on a GDP PPP basis are Lichtenstein and Singapore, also some of the most free economically, yet they could probably be described as benevolent authoritarian systems. Dubai further behind, although some similar points. It seems authoritarians that know how to use their authority to force the populace to accept (some forms of) freedom can perform be…

What I find confusing about this comment is that to me, authoritarian and libertarian are opposites, but have only to do with individual freedoms, not the political system.

With these definitions, you can have a democratic or non-democratic system, and both can give rise to libertarian or authoritarian societies.

Democracies tend to produce more libertarian systems than dictatorships, but only to some extent, and in fact, they are often authoritarian in various aspects. All it takes to oppress some people in a democracy, even when they are not causing harm, is the majority of people wanting to do so.

Vice versa, a dictatorship with some enlightened, incorruptible, and perfectly mentally stable dictator that acts as a night-watchman so that individual freedoms are respected would be more libertarian than a democracy, but it's unlikely you'd get such a dictator.

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