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Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

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Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#71

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #9
ancorevard wrote: post #7

From TBPN today: https://x.com/tbpn/status/2011930385555566600

I'm not on Italy's side but I can't say I respect @eastdakota's rhetoric... > "The crazy stat is that Europe makes more from fining US tech companies than they do from taxing their own technology companies." That's one way of saying it. Another way is that US companies are so extravagantly huge and violate EU laws so much that the fines are correspondingly huge.

> That's one way of saying it. Another way is that US companies are so extravagantly huge and violate EU laws so much that the fines are correspondingly huge.

Another way of saying it is that because of transfer pricing, basically nobody knows what money was made where (and the notion of profits per country in a world of multinationals with no capital controls is meaningless).

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#72

Post by xoa »

br1brown wrote: post #66
handsclean wrote: post #52

What a shameless load of reframing. Let’s balance that out a little. Italy is doing something immoral and significantly harmful, foreigners considered leaving rather than becoming complicit, this guy is morally offended that foreigners think they’re allowed to not be in Italy.

OK, they are foreigners, but does that mean they can ignore the law and avoid paying fines? and they are not simply "foreigners" but the largest web security company serving the country (including public authority websites).

>OK, they are foreigners, but does that mean they can ignore the law and avoid paying fines?

Uh, yes? Obviously? If they're willing to pay a much bigger price in the form of losing all business in the country completely and never visiting again. But the law and fines don't apply globally only to Italy, so if someone is not Italian and is willing to give up on a not insignificant market (and beautiful country) then sure, why wouldn't that be that? Seems like it balances out, I'm sure Cloudflare does way more business than 14M in Italy, so they're not going to be casual about it. And remember, this is just pitting one arbitrary set of business interests (IP monopolists) against another (internet service company and associated customers). Why should Italy be immune from getting pushed on by the second party there and immune from facing the cost tradeoffs? Why privilege the former commercial interests over the latter?

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#73

Post by sys_64738 »

br1brown wrote: post #65

Italian IT guy here. I understand Cloudflare’s position. BUT IMO making this only "Cloudflare good vs Italy bad" is too simple. Italy’s anti-piracy system (Piracy Shield) is a shitshow: too fast, too automated, and often unfair. And "shit happens" is not ok when legit services get blocked too (like Google Drive on 19 Oct 2024). One point: if a private company can say "we will not comply" and also hint they can pull s…

It's about precedence in cases like this as the dominos fall quickly otherwise. If you stop the roots from growing then other countries won't get ideas. It's why companies should totally ban the Brit geo for all the daft laws they enact.

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#75

Post by chairmansteve »

br1brown wrote: post #65

Italian IT guy here. I understand Cloudflare’s position. BUT IMO making this only "Cloudflare good vs Italy bad" is too simple. Italy’s anti-piracy system (Piracy Shield) is a shitshow: too fast, too automated, and often unfair. And "shit happens" is not ok when legit services get blocked too (like Google Drive on 19 Oct 2024). One point: if a private company can say "we will not comply" and also hint they can pull s…

Very well said.

Also, Cloudflare could charge Serie A a ton if money for "Piracy prevention services".

Serie A is not short of cash.

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#76

Post by rpdillon »

br1brown wrote: post #65

Italian IT guy here. I understand Cloudflare’s position. BUT IMO making this only "Cloudflare good vs Italy bad" is too simple. Italy’s anti-piracy system (Piracy Shield) is a shitshow: too fast, too automated, and often unfair. And "shit happens" is not ok when legit services get blocked too (like Google Drive on 19 Oct 2024). One point: if a private company can say "we will not comply" and also hint they can pull s…

It seems reasonable that the infrastructure providers would decide who they service, and on what terms. If countries decide to pass laws that are impractical or violate clear moral boundaries around things like free speech or due process, then they are running the risk that people will stop working with them. That's part of the cost.

But I'm sort of an extremist in this regard, I guess. My belief is that companies should be able to choose who they service. So when Google threatened to leave Australia or Canada over the news link taxes, it felt like that's Google's prerogative. I feel the same way about Cloudflare here.

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#77

Post by rpdillon »

CJefferson wrote: post #30
atonse wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the details of the article? The regulator fined them for not hacking DNS to the whims of the media companies in Italy that want to clamp down on piracy by altering the way DNS works. DNS. The actual "open internet" I think you may have this backwards. To me it seems like something they should talk to local Italian ISPs about, not Cloudflare.

But cloudflare do block things. They tend to block things as a rule the American government wants blocking. The problem is they want to be the people who choose what gets blocked, rather than elected governments. To me, this whole thing is crazy, certainly pull out if you like, but I'm shocked how many people seem to be siding with the profit-making company over an elected government.

> The problem is they want to be the people who choose what gets blocked, rather than elected governments.

AGCOM is elected?

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#78

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

N19PEDL2 wrote: post #64
Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #63

I really hope they proceed to exit Italy and destroy half of the internet for the country. At that point, there will be a huge backlash on soccer and AGCOM

If half of the internet of a country depends on a single US company, then the problem is not soccer and AGCOM...

It is already a problem for the EU

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#79

Post by WhyNotHugo »

echelon wrote: post #49
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #19

Lucky Italians. Can we sign up for Cloudflare to leave too?

Italy is on the side of censorship and IP blocking. Cloudflare is on the side of freedom. In this case your priors are wrong and the parties you should cheer for are reversed.

Just because the Italian stance here is absurd won’t make me cheer for the other party. I can disagree with both of them on different terms.

Re: Cloudflare threatens Italy exit over €14M fine

#80

Post by tartoran »

Cloudflare would lose a lot more than 15M if they left, so this makes no financial sense. They just feel backed up by the current administration and proceeded to bluff. I'd call their bluff. If they leave some European/Italian company will step up to the plate and fill that void which is probably for the better for Italy and Europe.
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