Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you don't want to share your stuff without taxing everyone, then don't share it. Other licenses exist. You don't have to use MIT or the GPL. I agree. Yet some of my comments here have been met with downvoting and explanations that GPL licensing is a moral imperative, so there is certainly a contingent who would disagree. > This is particularly rampant in the Rust community This is interesting. Do you have exampl…
Yeah, there's a HN comment where someone is complaining about a related concept but in the linked threads there you have a lot of these donation inquisitors. I shy away from any such community. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46048954
GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
331–340 of 352 posts
Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
I support UBI, funded by high capital gains taxes, to offset the growing value of capital relative to labor due to ever-improving automation, but I think it's silly to think a significant number of people will ever be happy with UBI alone. First of all, "baseline needs" are fluid. These days, electricity and internet are broadly considered baseline needs, but would have been unimaginable luxuries for previous generat…
> The vast majority of people will never be satisfied with the bare minimum Isn't that a benefit for UBI? If everyone's basic needs are met and they want more, nothing would stop them from taking a job and making more money right?
The parent post was talking about how everybody would have more time for unpaid pursuits if only we had UBI. I'm saying that I don't think UBI would change that much. People will continue to pursue unpaid hobbies much like they do today, but making money will still be just as important.
Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
The hikikomori [1] or NEETs ought to be a hotbed of creative works if your hypothesis is true. And they aren't, plain and simple. There is effectively zero evidence suggesting a population on UBI will result in some sort of outpouring of creativity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori and it's not a phenomenon limited to Japan.
Chiming in as a former-ish member of the demographic you are just making stuff up about. There is no way to determine how much and how UBI would impact hikikomori because the demographic is inherently adverse to study. I personally know that some crucial open source work is maintained by people with schizoid-avoidant spectrum issues. I know a lot of them but I won't out them here. hikikomori are driven to be invisibl…
Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
The hikikomori [1] or NEETs ought to be a hotbed of creative works if your hypothesis is true. And they aren't, plain and simple. There is effectively zero evidence suggesting a population on UBI will result in some sort of outpouring of creativity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori and it's not a phenomenon limited to Japan.
Um, hikikomori are a hotbed of creative works, though. Your entire premise is false. I don't know that you could get reliable statistics proving this claim, but Japan likely has the highest number of creatives per capita of any country in the world, and a ton of them are NEETs who spend their time drawing fanart or writing trashy webnovels. The vast majority of this creative work isn't commercially successful, of cou…
And you expect the voting public to be persuaded to support UBI because of the immense societal value of an tsunami of gooner fanart (yes, I do have some passing familiarity with the sort of output Japanese NEETs generate) and "trashy webnovels"? I'm pretty sure that when the person I'm replying to talked about "the incredible artworks [and] literature ... that would spring into existence", that's probably not what they were hoping for.
Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this is the piece so many that are stuck in the hustle culture mindset miss, and why they are so quick to dismiss anything like UBI or a strong social safety net that might “reduce people’s motivation”. There are many many creative, caring people that are motivated to create things or care for each other for the sake of it, not for some financial reward. Imagine the incredible programs, websites, games, craft…
> There are many many creative, caring people that are motivated to create things or care for each other for the sake of it Very true. In a UBU world I have no doubt we’d have many exciting libraries, lots of pottery, and many books. But I’ve never met anyone passionate about collecting bins, development of accounting tooling, or pricing of phone insurance. You need rewards to allocate people effectively, because “pa…
There has been several really nice personal accounting CLI projects lately.
Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#336Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've made my living working fulltime on a single open source project for more than 15 years now. I think it is important to differentiate between different kinds of projects that people might undertake, and 3 particular categories always come to my mind (you may have more): * "plumbing" - all that infrastructure that isn't something you'd ever use directly, but the tools you do use wouldn't function without it. This…
If a "well-defined goal" project gets popular and sticky enough, it can metamorphize into an "ever-evolving" project by injection of VC capital.
https://www.laws-of-software.com/laws/zawinski/
> Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.
-- James Zawinski, 1995Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Equally I think the idea that OSS should move towards a transactional kind of relationship is just as bad. GPL is transactional; that's the whole point. What you are calling OSS includes GPL, true, but it also includes BSD/MIT, which are not transactional.
To be clear; I don't consider GPL to be completely free software. I also don't think all software needs to be free. I also don't think all software needs to be a gift. (But then I just said the same thing twice.) The part that I care about is which direction the default [default definition?] shifts. In my perfect world, more code would be MIT not GPL. But in my perfect world, the GPL wouldn't be useful in practice. T…
Well, yeah. I think we agree. That's why I said it is transactional - you get software in exchange for any future potential improvement you make to it.
It's a transaction.
MIT is not transactional, it's charity - you get software without having to trade anything for it.
If people make their software MIT or GPL, they should not complain when it is used in a way that they are unhappy with. With MIT, it can be used in almost any way the user wants, including closing it off, and depriving the community of improvements.
Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
Um, hikikomori are a hotbed of creative works, though. Your entire premise is false. I don't know that you could get reliable statistics proving this claim, but Japan likely has the highest number of creatives per capita of any country in the world, and a ton of them are NEETs who spend their time drawing fanart or writing trashy webnovels. The vast majority of this creative work isn't commercially successful, of cou…
> " NEETs who spend their time drawing fanart or writing trashy webnovels " And you expect the voting public to be persuaded to support UBI because of the immense societal value of an tsunami of gooner fanart (yes, I do have some passing familiarity with the sort of output Japanese NEETs generate) and "trashy webnovels"? I'm pretty sure that when the person I'm replying to talked about " the incredible artworks [and]…
That you boil it down to "gooner fanart" reflects entirely on yourself and what you view. I believe this is known as "telling on yourself". The overwhelming majority of the artistic output is actually not lewd; somewhere in the region of 85-90% of what gets published is SFW. Not only that, a pretty considerable amount of output is in fact professional-quality; if anything keeps them from being professionals, it's merely the fact that they spend their time creating what they want to see in the world. Being an actually professional artist generally entails creating what other people want to see in the world; specifically what a critical mass of people willing to pay want, which renders commercially viable art to a limited subset of possibilities, mostly only possibilities that appeal to the lowest common denominator if you want to ensure the safety of your income.
You could indeed say that literature is a weak point relative to the very high quality art, music, games, etc, in the NEET cultural sphere, but it's because people aren't trying to be literary. There is simply a subcultural preference, among both creators and consumers, for easier-to-digest writing. The forms of creativity people take an interest in don't have to match the exact ones you value in order for them to have merit. People read and write trashy webnovels because they like trashy webnovels, and that's fine too. It is still an expression of creativity all the same. And some small percentage of those trashy webnovels do go on to be extremely commercially successful, so even if that's your cynical metric for creative value to society it would still be incorrect to say they don't have value.
Re: GitHub should charge everyone $1 more per month to fund open source
#340Individuals and companies love open source software, but the current donation models don’t really work.
I thought this problem was bad for programming libraries (e.g. the recent Tailwind stuff), but after using Linux desktop open source—which has much less incentive for companies to donate or sponsor—oh boy, it’s bad.
Open source evokes a lot of emotions, but at its core, to me, it’s two things:
A collection of “features” (depending on license / governance):
* You can use it for free, no matter what
* You can see how it works
* You can modify the software
etc.
These are genuinely valuable features, which is why open source has won.
But these features are unavoidably coupled to business models and incentive structures for the developers who create this value.
Right now, open source developers and companies can only extract a relatively small percentage of the (considerable) value they create. As a result, only very large or strategically important projects become financially sustainable.
I agree with the article that the solution likely involves a different business model or incentive alignment—but this is a very hard problem.
We’ve seen major business model shifts outside open source during my career:
- SaaS software (used to be one-time payments)
- Microtransactions in games (personally dislike them, but they radically changed incentives and revenue)
These shifts are often counterintuitive and closely tied to human behavior.
I don’t agree with the specific solution proposed in the article, but I don’t have a clean answer either.
My best (very rough) idea:
Create a non-profit that builds tooling and infrastructure to measure open source usage (tricky!).
Loosely, you run something like:
oss-usage
And it generates a report for a machine (or an entire company): 'tailwind': 5 # units TBD
'npm': 8
'haskell': 1
Then a centralized registry where individuals and companies can disclose usage and donations: 'stripe': {
usage: {
'tailwind': 5,
'npm': 40,
'haskell': 1,
'ruby': 60
},
totalDonationDollars: 100000,
donationBreakdown: {
'ruby': 10000,
'haskell': 100,
'tailwind': 5000
}
}
'oracle': 'not yet claimed'
'dave': {
usage: {
'svelte': 20,
'pnpm': 40
},
totalDonationDollars: 100,
donationBreakdown: {
'svelte': 20,
'pnpm': 40
}
}
Donated funds are held centrally and can be claimed by project maintainers.Companies can claim (or not) their usage. Developers can claim (or not) their projects and funds.
Donations are aggregated into one transaction per month, solving the microtransaction problem.
This creates a public, open record of who is funding open source. I think that could be a strong incentive for larger companies—engineers will notice when choosing where to work.
Bad actors who under-donate or refuse to disclose won’t be invisible; we’ll know where they stand.
Anyway - if you’ve read this far and are interested in working on or funding this idea, come find me: https://richardgill.org