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The Gleam Programming Language

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Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#171

Post by pjmlp »

systems wrote: post #125
replwoacause wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried F#? That usually gets a lot of praise in FP discussions.

F# seem to be in abandon-ware state the creator of F# moved to another job as his primary work the forum and community are very dry Nothing interesting being created in F# As much as I had high hopes for F# I think its safe at this point, to not pursuit it any further .Net is C# If you want an Ocaml like language, that is not Ocaml, your best bet is Rescript and that being said, Rescript is probably more of a competi…

I would assert that Microsoft's management always behaved as if they repented to have added F# to VS 2010, with all the maintenance guarantees it implies, throughout the years they have searched how to sell it.

Nowadays CLR has effectively changed meaning to C# Language Runtime, and ironically the JVM is more lively as the original goal of the CLR back in 2001.

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#172

Post by zbentley »

instig007 wrote: post #166
hayleighdotdev wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, and I realize that this might get me a bit of flack here and that’s obviously fine, but I find type systems start losing utility with distributed applications. Ultimately everything being sent over the wire is just bits. Actually Gleam somewhat shares this view, it doesn't pretend that you can do typesafe distributed message passing (and it doesn't fall into the decades-running trap of trying to solve thi…

> handling dynamic messages the dynamic messages have to have static properties to be relevant for the receiving program, the properties are known upfront, and there's no "decades-running trap of trying to solve this".

> there's no "decades-running trap of trying to solve this".

I’m not as certain. The fact that we’ve gone from ASN.1 to COBRA/SOAP to protobuf to Cap’n’web and all the million other items I didn’t list says something. The fact that, even given a very popular alternative in that list, or super tightly integrated RPC like sending terms between BEAMs, basic questions like “should optionality/absence be encoded differently than unset default values?” and “how should we encode forward compatibility?” have so may different and unsatisfactory answers says something.

Not as an appeal to authority or a blanket endorsement, but I think Fowler put it best: https://martinfowler.com/articles/distributed-objects-micros...

It absolutely is a decades old set of problems that have never been solved to the satisfaction of most users.

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#173

Post by self_awareness »

DrNefario wrote: post #170
self_awareness wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sake of simplicity, and to detach our feelings from this subject, let's assume that Ω-GN is a grift. Ω is a superset of Ω-GN. We cannot conclude that Ω is a grift solely because a subset (Ω-GN) is a grift. However, can we objectively say that Ω is not a grift just because there are some instances within Ω that are not grifts? Clearly, there are also instances within Ω that are grifts, since Ω-GN (a subset of…

I used 'Nazi' in reference to the series of tweets about a polite Nazi. (Forgive the Reddit link) https://www.reddit.com/r/TalesFromYourServer/comments/hsiisw... Take it to mean a literal straight out of 1942 National Socialist if you like, it doesn't change what I was trying to convey. If you want a historical comparison to BLM, how about the suffragettes. I can guarantee that there were grifters looking to make mon…

It's really funny, because that's how I portray inclusive people. They're nice until they bring friends. And later friends require changing the vocabulary and I don't even know how to communicate with them. But I'm not calling them soviets.

I've literally said in my previous message that in my opinion it can't be said that BLM is a grift, and can't be said that it is not a grift. It's not even about a grift, it's about objective statements.

I guess we have to agree to disagree, since it's apparent we're not even reading ourselves properly.

By the way, one date of importance when it comes to nazism for me is 1st September 1939. German nazis marked a whole country for extermination, but you're having a good time by comparing children with computers from a Reddit story to nazis.

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#174

Post by 15155 »

DrNefario wrote: post #161
self_awareness wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Black Lives Matter is objectively not a grift. There we go again. I think that you people would gain if you'd read what does it mean if something is objective and also the meaning of "subjective". Either you live in social bubbles or you're intentionally ignoring anything that's not in line with your ideology. I'm actually not surprised this is the case, since you're not allowing people outside of your bubbles in y…

I explicitly did not call them an asshole, it was very much conditional on the way they choose to act inside these communities. Regarding your accusation of subjectivity, I was addressing the misnomer that BLMGN is equivalent to the BLM movement - it's not. BLMGN might be a grift for all I know, but that cannot be used to call the entire BLM movement a grift. By definition a grifter is aware that they're grifting, do…

> Transphobes are constantly imposing their beliefs on trans people, trans people want equal rights

What happens if you don't use the correct pronouns someone has declared for themselves?

Is this not "imposing beliefs" on other people?

This goes far beyond "tolerance": you must be an active, enthusiastic participant or face punishment.

> It's very easy to hide your beliefs if you want to participate

That's the point: only one set of ideas are allowed, everyone else must hide, regardless of forum.

> anyone is free to join and start getting support

Try espousing ideals contrary to theirs in completely unrelated venues and see how much support you get sans anonymity.

> places that don't make people feel unsafe.

"Feeling unsafe" is an outstanding weapon to crush behavior one doesn't like. Doesn't even require logic: it's literally a feeling.

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#175

Post by 15155 »

__jonas wrote: post #165
self_awareness wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sake of simplicity, and to detach our feelings from this subject, let's assume that Ω-GN is a grift. Ω is a superset of Ω-GN. We cannot conclude that Ω is a grift solely because a subset (Ω-GN) is a grift. However, can we objectively say that Ω is not a grift just because there are some instances within Ω that are not grifts? Clearly, there are also instances within Ω that are grifts, since Ω-GN (a subset of…

You seem quite passionate about this, which I find difficult to understand, maybe because I’m not as deeply immersed in American political culture as you (I had no idea people see BLM as an organisation rather than a movement / ethical stance) but I’m curious: Is it really just about language for you? If the section was phrased as “We are LGBTQ+ friendly and do not tolerate transphobia or racism” that would feel more…

> If the section was phrased as “We are LGBTQ+ friendly and do not tolerate transphobia or racism” that would feel more welcoming to you?

It's very, very easy to turn ideas into "racism" or "transphobia."

> it’s just not a space where that kind of discussion is welcome

These folks believe no space exists where this type of discussion is welcome and will deny participation to anyone not towing the party line in all forums - not just their little fiefdom.

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#176

Post by instig007 »

zbentley wrote: post #172
instig007 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> handling dynamic messages the dynamic messages have to have static properties to be relevant for the receiving program, the properties are known upfront, and there's no "decades-running trap of trying to solve this".

> there's no "decades-running trap of trying to solve this". I’m not as certain. The fact that we’ve gone from ASN.1 to COBRA/SOAP to protobuf to Cap’n’web and all the million other items I didn’t list says something. The fact that, even given a very popular alternative in that list, or super tightly integrated RPC like sending terms between BEAMs, basic questions like “should optionality/absence be encoded different…

> I’m not as certain. The fact that we’ve gone from ASN.1 to COBRA/SOAP to protobuf to Cap’n’web and all the million other items I didn’t list says something.

> It absolutely is a decades old set of problems that have never been solved to the satisfaction of most users.

ASN.1 wasn't in the same problem space with CORBA/DCOM, both CORBA and DCOM/OLE were heavily invested in a general-purpose non-domain-specific object model representation that would suppot arbitrary embeddings within an open-ended range of software. I suspect this is the unsolvable problem indeed, but I also believe that's not what you meant with your comment either, since all the known large-scale BEAM deployments (the comment I originally replied to implied BEAM deployments) operate within bounded domain spaces such as telecom and messaging, where distributed properties of the systems are known upfront: there are existing formats, protocols of exchange, and the finite number of valid interactions between entities/actors of the network, the embeddings are either non-existent or limited to a finite set of media such as static images, videos, maps, contacts etc. All of these can be encoded by a compile-time specification that gets published for all parties upfront.

> basic questions like “should optionality/absence be encoded differently than unset default values?”

However you like, any monoid would work here. I would argue that [a] and [] always win over (Option a) and especially over (Option [a]).

> and “how should we encode forward compatibility?”

If you'd like to learn if there's a spec-driven typed way of achieving that, you can start your research from this sample implementation atop json: https://github.com/typeable/schematic?tab=readme-ov-file#mig...

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#177

Post by DrNefario »

15155 wrote: post #174
DrNefario wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I explicitly did not call them an asshole, it was very much conditional on the way they choose to act inside these communities. Regarding your accusation of subjectivity, I was addressing the misnomer that BLMGN is equivalent to the BLM movement - it's not. BLMGN might be a grift for all I know, but that cannot be used to call the entire BLM movement a grift. By definition a grifter is aware that they're grifting, do…

> Transphobes are constantly imposing their beliefs on trans people, trans people want equal rights What happens if you don't use the correct pronouns someone has declared for themselves? Is this not "imposing beliefs" on other people? This goes far beyond "tolerance": you must be an active, enthusiastic participant or face punishment. > It's very easy to hide your beliefs if you want to participate That's the point:…

> What happens if you don't use the correct pronouns someone has declared for themselves? Is this not "imposing beliefs" on other people?

That's a false equivalence. All that's asked of you is to not misgender or deadname them, whereas transphobes are actively making it impossible for trans people to freely live as themselves.

It's also about not being a dickhead. If you met an autistic kid, and were told that he becomes incredibly distressed if you don't refer to him as 'Mr.', would you at least make an effort to call him that? It doesn't matter how ridiculous you think calling a kid 'Mr.' is, he isn't imposing his beliefs on you by asking that of you. If someone decides that their community will be a safe place for the kid to be, then of course they're justified in removing you if you refuse to call him 'Mr'.

Regardless of whether you believe trans people are mentally ill or just a normal part of humanity, not misgendering them is a simple courtesy to avoid causing a fellow human distress.

> "Feeling unsafe" is an outstanding weapon to crush behavior one doesn't like. Doesn't even require logic: it's literally a feeling.

How is this relevant to a programming language community? Who, in your scenario, is doing the crushing?

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#178

Post by 15155 »

DrNefario wrote: post #177
15155 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Transphobes are constantly imposing their beliefs on trans people, trans people want equal rights What happens if you don't use the correct pronouns someone has declared for themselves? Is this not "imposing beliefs" on other people? This goes far beyond "tolerance": you must be an active, enthusiastic participant or face punishment. > It's very easy to hide your beliefs if you want to participate That's the point:…

> What happens if you don't use the correct pronouns someone has declared for themselves? Is this not "imposing beliefs" on other people? That's a false equivalence. All that's asked of you is to not misgender or deadname them, whereas transphobes are actively making it impossible for trans people to freely live as themselves. It's also about not being a dickhead. If you met an autistic kid, and were told that he bec…

> not misgender or deadname them

In other words: be an active, enthusiastic participant in someone's beliefs regardless of your own.

> How is this relevant to a programming language community?

Easy example: "I feel unsafe because DHH doesn't like that his country has been overrun by immigrants, he must be removed!"

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#179

Post by phplovesong »

cmoski wrote: post #65
phplovesong wrote: post #42

Gleam is nice. However it is still very lacking in the stdlib. You will need lots of dependencies to build something usable. I kind of wish Gleam could target something like Go, then you would have the option to go native without a "heavy" VM like the BEAM.

Surely the BEAM is one of the major selling points.

Not for executables. Not everything needs an runtime.

Re: The Gleam Programming Language

#180

Post by tkzed49 »

self_awareness wrote: post #75
tkzed49 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

human rights are not politics

Every "right" is politics. A set of "rights" comes from current law. And Code of Law is an invention like everything else.

let me clarify the intent of my comment then. Human rights is not a "two-sides" issue to be debated. If you attempt to reduce an affirmation of human rights for all people to a "political agenda", I will call out your conservative dogwhistle. I don't care how that's received.
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