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25 Years of Wikipedia

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Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#41

Post by GaryBluto »

amiga386 wrote: post #19

https://wikipedia25.org/en/the-first-day > Founder Jimbo Wales on a challenge overcome Aren't you forgetting someone, Jimmy? Your co-founder Larry Sanger, perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sanger Let's check one of the citations from the History of Wikipedia page: https://www.mid-day.com/lifestyle/health-and-fitness/article... > It was Larry Sanger who chanced upon the critical concept of combining the thr…

I'd say his lack of acknowledgment of Larry Sanger is actually quite useful, as it is a perfect and irrefutable example that Wikipedia has no qualms with omitting information and twisting the truth to serve a narrative.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#42

Post by amiga386 »

altilunium wrote: post #12
amiga386 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't begrudge them the odd party, anniversary, meetup. And some of their subprojects are a great idea and could go much further -- it'd be fantastic to have a Wikipedia atlas, for example. The WikiMiniAtlas on geolocated articles is nice but it could be so much better. But as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CANCER it's a huge concern that they're blowing money pretty much at the rate they get it, when they sh…

I made “Wikidata Atlas” several weeks ago. [1] [2] [1] : https://wd-nearbyitem.toolforge.org/ [2] : https://rtnf.substack.com/p/wd-nearbyitem

That is a nice start, a rendering of GIS wikidata. Perhaps ask Wikimedia Foundation for funding :)

What I'd like to see is a more intimate marrying of OSM data and Wikipedia data. For example, if I go to zoom level 12 centred on London, UK on your page, there are about 80 text labels on the OSM layer itself. At minimum this is going to need OSM vector tiles. I'd expect to be able to click any of the OSM labels for the corresponding Wikipedia article, as well as adding in POIs for articles that don't have corresponding OSM links. And then you need OSM rendering style rules about which POIs you show at each zoom level, based on whether labels will run into each other or not.

The problem right now is that the WikiMiniAtlas treats all things, whether large areas or individual POIs, as POIs.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#43

Post by lambdaone »

tonymet wrote: post #33
jyscao wrote: post #29

Wikipedia is overall excellent, and it has certainly brought enormous value to me throughout the years. But it is noticeably biased on any topic that has political implications.

History and many fields of science also have political implications, and you’ll find just as much editorial slant there, too

This would be the reality-based editorial slant, then? What are you proposing as an alternative?

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#44

Post by xemoka »

mr_mitm wrote: post #38
amiga386 wrote: post #19

https://wikipedia25.org/en/the-first-day > Founder Jimbo Wales on a challenge overcome Aren't you forgetting someone, Jimmy? Your co-founder Larry Sanger, perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sanger Let's check one of the citations from the History of Wikipedia page: https://www.mid-day.com/lifestyle/health-and-fitness/article... > It was Larry Sanger who chanced upon the critical concept of combining the thr…

It's a very touchy subject for Wales. It caused him to walk out of an interview after 48 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uswRbWyt_pg

Oh. Wow. I had no idea Jimmy Wales was like that. Enlightening.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#45

Post by amiga386 »

GaryBluto wrote: post #41
amiga386 wrote: post #19

https://wikipedia25.org/en/the-first-day > Founder Jimbo Wales on a challenge overcome Aren't you forgetting someone, Jimmy? Your co-founder Larry Sanger, perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sanger Let's check one of the citations from the History of Wikipedia page: https://www.mid-day.com/lifestyle/health-and-fitness/article... > It was Larry Sanger who chanced upon the critical concept of combining the thr…

I'd say his lack of acknowledgment of Larry Sanger is actually quite useful, as it is a perfect and irrefutable example that Wikipedia has no qualms with omitting information and twisting the truth to serve a narrative.

Wikimedia, maybe, but Wikipedia itself acknowledges it in the lead paragraph:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia

> Founded by Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger in 2001

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales

> Most notably, he co-founded Wikipedia

Wikipedia shows integrity even when its co-founder does not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales#Co-founder_status_...

> In late 2005, Wales edited his biographical entry on the English Wikipedia. Writer Rogers Cadenhead drew attention to logs showing that in his edits to the page, Wales had removed references to Sanger as the co-founder of Wikipedia.[53][54] Sanger commented that "having seen edits like this, it does seem that Jimmy is attempting to rewrite history. But this is a futile process because, in our brave new world of transparent activity and maximum communication, the truth will out."[20][55] Wales was also observed to have modified references to Bomis in a way that was characterized as downplaying the sexual nature of some of his former company's products.[16][20] Though Wales argued that his modifications were solely intended to improve the accuracy of the content,[20] he apologized for editing his biography, a practice generally discouraged on Wikipedia.[20][55]

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#47

Post by lambdaone »

chaostheory wrote: post #30

Aside from AI, Wikipedia’s greatest upcoming challenge will be censorship as Western governments start to adopt various traits of Eastern dictatorships.

For all of its ubiquity, Wikipedia is a single fragile organization in an increasingly unstable political landscape.

I hope that efforts are being made to make sure that its content is not only being archived in many places, but also that the know-how to reboot Wikipedia's hosting from its dumps (software, infrastructure deployment and all) is being actively preserved by people independent of the organization.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#48

Post by threetonesun »

adventured wrote: post #40
p-e-w wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Projects like Wikipedia never have meaningful competition, because the social dynamics invariably converge to a single platform eating everything else.

Wikipedia is already dead, they just don't know it yet. They'll get Stackoverflowed. The LLMs have already guaranteed their zombie end. The HN crowd will be comically delusional about it right up to the point where Wikimedia struggles to keep the lights on and has to fire 90% of its staff. There is no scenario where that outcome is avoided (some prominent billionaire will step in with a check as they get really despe…

If we kill all the platforms where content for training LLMs comes from, what do LLMs train on?

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#49

Post by hulitu »

FiveOhThree wrote: post #24

I can't be the only one who feels that Wikipedia's quality has really started to go downhill over the past 5 or so years. I've noticed more and more articles which read as ridiculously partisan, usually around subjects with any link to politics or current events. That's probably linked to the increasing polarisation in the US, but I get the impression that the sites neutrality policies have gradually been chipped awa…

> That's probably linked to the increasing polarisation in the US,

Not really. The phenomenon exists in other languages Wikipedias. I think it is related to the fact that NGOs that "shape" political discourse and politicians have become "sensible" to the text in Wikipedia pages.

It is always good, when you read Wikipedia, to "follow the money", i.e. look at the sources, see if they make sense.

In the last 5 years, a lot of online platforms, HN also, are used by state actors to spread propaganda and Wikipedia is perfect for that because it presents itself as a "neutral" source.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#50

Post by rvnx »

xemoka wrote: post #44
mr_mitm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very touchy subject for Wales. It caused him to walk out of an interview after 48 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uswRbWyt_pg

Oh. Wow. I had no idea Jimmy Wales was like that. Enlightening.

Wikipedia is literally a spin-off of a porn company.

From that point on, where it came from or who founded it is not so important. The question is how it acts today.

It is a highly-political organization supporting lot of “progressive” ideas, California-style. So if you like reading politically biased media it may be for you.

If you are seeking for a global view you better ask different LLMs for arguments and counter-arguments on a subject.

EDIT: a couple downvotes denying the influence of specific “Wikipedia ideology” and politics.

Take a chance to edit articles and you will see how tedious it is.

There is also a lot of legal censorship. Celebrities putting pressure on removing info, or lobbies, or say things that are illegal or very frowned upon (for example questioning homosexuality, or the impact of certain wars).

Sometime it is legality, ideology, politics, funding, pressure, etc.

This is why you need to use different sources.

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