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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#111

Post by eru »

grecy wrote: post #106
eru wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please take into account that demand doesn't stay fixed, either. The immigrant will either spend or invest his pay.

> The immigrant will either spend or invest his pay. This is flawed logic for two reasons: 1. As I'm an immigrant here myself, I have a lot of friends that are also immigrants, although most are of the kind I discussed, working minimum wage for the Wal-Marts of the world. I can guarantee you, they send every penny they can spare to their family in their home country, and themselves live in second world conditions (10…

About 1: Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't, the Fed can just run slightly looser monetary policy.

About 2: The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#113

Post by realrocker »

eru wrote: post #100
realrocker wrote: post #71

This sort of thing is also harmful for native IT development for an outsourcing destination such as India. Since the motive of work channeled to India is simply cheaper costs, good software engineers have a limited run. One of the direct fallout is time-based promotions instead of merit-based. Some salient points: a) Average entry salary(0 years exp.) for an IT worker is about $6k. After applying PPP(purchasing power…

If the carrot makes more people invest in skills than actually leave the country, India will easily profit. Also the ones who leave often send remittance, and may one day come back with new skills. > This is also the reason India has not produced even a single Google or a Nokia. There are other things wrong with India (and Nokia nowadays, too).

800 carrots for 100,000+, thus a red herring.

I believe desperation for innovation is the key factor though.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#114

Post by rayiner »

xxpor wrote: post #92
rayiner wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B. But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's educatio…

>Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes I see this ridiculous assertion everywhere now a days. If h1b's are renting an apartment, they are still paying property taxes because the building owner has to pay these taxes. Do you think that property owners really pay these taxes out of the goodness of their heart?

The allocation of property taxes amongst renters and landlords isn't a simple calculation. It depends on the dynamics of the market.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#115

Post by grecy »

eru wrote: post #111
grecy wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The immigrant will either spend or invest his pay. This is flawed logic for two reasons: 1. As I'm an immigrant here myself, I have a lot of friends that are also immigrants, although most are of the kind I discussed, working minimum wage for the Wal-Marts of the world. I can guarantee you, they send every penny they can spare to their family in their home country, and themselves live in second world conditions (10…

About 1: Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't, the Fed can just run slightly looser monetary policy. About 2: The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not....

> Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't

That may be the most superfluous statement I've ever read.

> The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer.

And it will put every local person out of a job, or force them to work for a wage lower than they were willing to accept in the first place, thus driving down minimum wage. That's a great way to turn your country into a developing one.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#116

Post by akiselev »

geebee wrote: post #45
Nursie wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are the employees entitled to the 'artificial' supply limitation created by national boundaries?" That's a very complex question. If you're talking about importing people then there is one set of answers, and if you're talking about outsourcing there's another. Personally I think we should be more worried about the outsourcing. At least the people who come to the country in question and live there have similar costs…

"Are the employees entitled to the 'artificial' supply limitation created by national boundaries?" I agree, this is a good question, but I do think that you can answer "no" while still disagreeing with the premise of the H1B program. Another way to frame this would be. "Should the 'artificial' supply limitations created by national boundaries be enforced evenly across all sectors of the workforce?" I'm actually ok wi…

It seems to me that the H1-B was more a response to young Americans not entering various fields than the other way around. In machining, for example, companies all over the country from automotive to aerospace to medical to mom and pop machine shops are having trouble finding skilled workers. As many as 50-70% of respondents in major industry surveys are saying that a skilled worker shortage is a major problem for growth and expansion. [1]

A shortage of talent isn't just a problem in the software industry, it's becoming endemic to engineering. For example, there are a few dozen electrical engineering consultants that do most of the hardware work for many of SV's startups (including ones such as SpaceX) and I've heard stats (that I don't have official data for on hand) like Mexico City universities are graduating more mechE's than the entirety of the US and anecdotally, it's becoming very difficult to find talented hardware engineer in any industry (most of the non-software startups I know of are 25-50% immigrants).

The H1-B Visas are critical for experienced and knowledgeable workers and if you artificially limit the supply (which is already the case), you have cases such as foreigners coming to the US, getting their BS/MS/PhD, just to be kicked out of the country a month later. Meanwhile, employers can't get the skilled workers that they need. IBM's abuse of the H1-B is kind of irrelevant, as they're not even in the top 10 of H1-B employers [2]

[1] http://www.themanufacturinginstitute.org/Research/Skills-Gap...

[2] http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/prevailing_wage_d...

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#117

Post by rayiner »

blinkingled wrote: post #108
rayiner wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B's are not required to have insurance plans nor are any employer insurance plans required to cover their dependents. Nor is their any guarantee that insurance will cover all the expenses. I don't think H1-B treatments are a significant cost to citizens/permanent residents. That's not my point. My point is that our hospitals are required by law to treat anyone that comes in, regardless of status. That's an obligat…

Is there a law for residents/citizens that requires employers to have insurance plans that cover all expenses? Emergency treatments are not exactly free or paid for by tax payers. If a H1-B loses his job or doesn't pay for med insurance and goes to healthcare institution (are there any publicly funded ones here?) - they will treat him/her but slap a collection for the full costs. As far as I know that is a potential…

What's the relevance of such a law? The point isn't whether H1-B's contribute more or less than residents/citizens. The point is that letting something in the country creates a set of reciprocal obligations. The people in a community are entitled to exercise control over incurring these obligations.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#118

Post by prostoalex »

rada wrote: post #53
greggman wrote: post #11

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

"tech professionals" usually bundles software engineers, system administrators, network administrators, and sometimes "business analysts" whose job it is to produce a report in Access.

Some of these sectors experienced severe declines, e.g., companies hosting their email with Google instead of advertising for an MCSE and Exchange administrator position, so the pay for some of the sectors adjusted accordingly.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#119

Post by rayiner »

ark15 wrote: post #102
rayiner wrote: post #67

Tech companies and their approach to labor is just sickening. They complain constantly that we don't let in enough H1B's. Are they offering to indemnify the government in case they need healthcare, unemployment; their children need public education, etc? They complain constantly that the publicly funded universities don't graduate enough STEM graduates to meet their needs. Think about that--they complain with no hint…

H1Bs residing in the US pay the same tax (including social security and medicare) as the citizens.(so if their kids need public education, they are also paying for it in a way) H1Bs are not entitled to unemployment benefits (or any form of government sponsored healthcare). In fact, technically, they are supposed to leave the country the same day they are fired otherwise they are illegally staying.

H1-B is a big step towards green card status for many people, and green card holders are entitled to all of these things.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#120

Post by patmcguire »

notlisted wrote: post #81
rada wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been i…

I had to look this up, so I thought I would share for anyone else who was confused - the points in this case refer to Social Security's eligibility system. http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10072.html
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