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Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

timstutts.com

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Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#11

Post by timtadh »

minimax wrote: post #8
dljsjr wrote: post #4

I agree with all of the sentiments in the article, but the one small thing that I do disagree with is the conflation of the word "creative" with what the author seems to indicate are artistic or graphical/visual disciplines. I believe that all programming, whether or not it's graphical or "artistic" in nature, is creative. Development is just as much a craft as it is a logical discipline. Learning algorithms, data st…

I think in this context he's using "creative" in the sense that it's used in the advertising industry. A creative is someone who actually works on developing an advertisement, rather than, say, someone buying up airtime. The companies on the list are almost all advertising agencies. It's just the industry nomenclature and I don't think he meant to say that programmers in the non-advertising world aren't creative.

That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking.

The term may not technically mean the above however the implication is there.

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#12

Post by notatoad »

timtadh wrote: post #11
minimax wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in this context he's using "creative" in the sense that it's used in the advertising industry. A creative is someone who actually works on developing an advertisement, rather than, say, someone buying up airtime. The companies on the list are almost all advertising agencies. It's just the industry nomenclature and I don't think he meant to say that programmers in the non-advertising world aren't creative.

That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking. The term may not technically mean…

>It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type.

i don't think that's an unfair implication. There is plenty of programming that has no creative aspect, and i'd say the majority of programmers are not creatives. It's a term with a well-accepted industry definition, and if you start defining it as broadly as you want to you could probably apply it to just about any job, anywhere in the world. The guy wiring up power poles outside my office does his own thinking, does that make his job creative?

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#13

Post by whatshisface »

callmevlad wrote: post #3

This is a very exciting trend, and I'm glad more designers are jumping into code. As an art school dropout who later finished a CS degree, the combination of skills is invaluable. I honestly believe that the most difficult work in creating something new/innovative is skewed to the design side, so I hope we see a corresponding trend as well: programmers becoming more interested in design. I like to think of 'creative…

All programers are concerned with design, if nothing else the design of the implementation! All good coders realize that there will really be two groups of users, the consumers and those who wish to extend or maintain the application. A piece of code with a good UX (maybe DX instead?) makes my life so much easier and can save my company quite a bit of money if my salary is high.

For small groups, having developers who can make good end user interfaces is pretty much a requirement, but this is noting special. If you were developing oilfield software, you would need to know about drilling. If you are developing software whose purpose is to augment some already-existing element of humanity (like communication), then it is not a surprise that you would want developers that know about how humans like to do things.

As members of a community focused almost entirely on a specific subset of everything there is to know about in the world, we must not forget that while a furniture maker should know woodworking well, he should also know about how people sit.

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#14

Post by dljsjr »

minimax wrote: post #8
dljsjr wrote: post #4

I agree with all of the sentiments in the article, but the one small thing that I do disagree with is the conflation of the word "creative" with what the author seems to indicate are artistic or graphical/visual disciplines. I believe that all programming, whether or not it's graphical or "artistic" in nature, is creative. Development is just as much a craft as it is a logical discipline. Learning algorithms, data st…

I think in this context he's using "creative" in the sense that it's used in the advertising industry. A creative is someone who actually works on developing an advertisement, rather than, say, someone buying up airtime. The companies on the list are almost all advertising agencies. It's just the industry nomenclature and I don't think he meant to say that programmers in the non-advertising world aren't creative.

I'd argue, though, that the word "creative" being used in this sense is directly related to how they go about solving their problem (producing effective advertising given the constraints) and not related to the fact that they are generating visuals or copy.

And these thinking techniques can very easily be applied to programming. If you haven't watched the John Cleese lecture I linked to, then I would highly recommend it.

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#15

Post by dljsjr »

notatoad wrote: post #12
timtadh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking. The term may not technically mean…

>It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. i don't think that's an unfair implication. There is plenty of programming that has no creative aspect, and i'd say the majority of programmers are not creatives. It's a term with a well-accepted industry definition, and if you start defining it as broadly as you want to you could probably apply it to just…

It has nothing to do with the job title and everything to do with the person.

And yes, I am saying that the label of creative can be applied to any job in the world. Watch the video.

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#16

Post by jianshen »

timtadh wrote: post #11
minimax wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in this context he's using "creative" in the sense that it's used in the advertising industry. A creative is someone who actually works on developing an advertisement, rather than, say, someone buying up airtime. The companies on the list are almost all advertising agencies. It's just the industry nomenclature and I don't think he meant to say that programmers in the non-advertising world aren't creative.

That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking. The term may not technically mean…

I don't think 'creative' denigrates regular coders precisely because the term IS from the Advertising industry where there is a clear delineation between "creative", "sales" and "business". [1]

Ad Agencies/VFX Companies/Design Firms tend to have a "Creative Director" [2] where a Creative Coder would report to and up until recently, their roles would not exist in traditional consumer/enterprise web companies.

Put another way, it's still blurry if someone in such a role would report to an Engineering Director or a Creative Director at a company that had both groups.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ad+agency+org+structure [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_director

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#17

Post by timtadh »

jianshen wrote: post #16
timtadh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking. The term may not technically mean…

I don't think 'creative' denigrates regular coders precisely because the term IS from the Advertising industry where there is a clear delineation between "creative", "sales" and "business". [1] Ad Agencies/VFX Companies/Design Firms tend to have a "Creative Director" [2] where a Creative Coder would report to and up until recently, their roles would not exist in traditional consumer/enterprise web companies. Put anot…

Respectfully most programmers don't work in advertising. It may be suitable in Advertising where the term is well understood. However, I don't think it should be a widely applied term outside of that field. The "plain sense" of the term is not the technical definition the "plain sense" is as I described it above.

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#18

Post by irreverentbits »

callmevlad wrote: post #3

This is a very exciting trend, and I'm glad more designers are jumping into code. As an art school dropout who later finished a CS degree, the combination of skills is invaluable. I honestly believe that the most difficult work in creating something new/innovative is skewed to the design side, so I hope we see a corresponding trend as well: programmers becoming more interested in design. I like to think of 'creative…

While condescending, this analogy isn't terrible for user-facing applications of the most trivial complexity.

But equating developers to line cooks in domains where actual engineering talent is required seems a bit ridiculous.

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#19

Post by timtadh »

notatoad wrote: post #12
timtadh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking. The term may not technically mean…

>It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. i don't think that's an unfair implication. There is plenty of programming that has no creative aspect, and i'd say the majority of programmers are not creatives. It's a term with a well-accepted industry definition, and if you start defining it as broadly as you want to you could probably apply it to just…

> i don't think that's an unfair implication.

we will have to disagree there. which is fine.

> if you start defining it as broadly as you want to you could probably apply it to just about any job, anywhere in the world. The guy wiring up power poles outside my office does his own thinking, does that make his job creative?

Which is my point. I am not saying all programmers to should be called "creative." However, calling a portion of them creative is inaccurate. It also doesn't really get at what OP wanted to get at which is: A programmer with visual arts training/skills.

Re: Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

#20

Post by jgv »

dljsjr wrote: post #4

I agree with all of the sentiments in the article, but the one small thing that I do disagree with is the conflation of the word "creative" with what the author seems to indicate are artistic or graphical/visual disciplines. I believe that all programming, whether or not it's graphical or "artistic" in nature, is creative. Development is just as much a craft as it is a logical discipline. Learning algorithms, data st…

this --> "I believe that all programming, whether or not it's graphical or "artistic" in nature, is creative. "
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