Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

cis.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 215 posts

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#81

Post by notlisted »

rada wrote: post #53
greggman wrote: post #11

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_...

Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been in a managerial capacity for at least 1 year out of the preceding 3 years.

As @rada indicated, the cost savings aspect alluded to are more often than not the result of lower age ranges and NOT just from wage discrimination.

Also note that if salaries are lower than what one would expect, it's because the prevailing wage number is lower than one might expect, simply because is is defined as the median wage for that position across the STATE, which would explain why prevailing wages are often much lower that what's "prevailing" in metro areas like NYC. (disclosure: IANAL, and I'm not 100% sure this is still the case, but I think it is)

One more thing to realize is that H1B workers and L1 workers PAY TAXES in the USA, BUT have NO rights to unemployment if they lose their job, nor to retirement benefits later in life etc. UNLESS they make it to the 40 points limit. At 3-4 points a year, this will typically take 10+ years and thus makes it near impossible with max. duration of visas, even if you 'stack' L1 and H1B (years on L1 add towards 6 year maximum of H1B). In short: the H1B workers fill the coffers of all non-visa workers without the option to withdraw their contribution in the future, unless they become citizens or marry a US spouse. Note that even if they do 8naturalize or marry, they'll need to get to this 40 point level to obtain retirement benefits. Can't find a link, but have the notifications from the social security administration in my files somewhere.

I'll be honest: I would not wish an H1B job on my worst enemy. I consider it modern-day slavery because you are beholden to your employer. These days it's not as bad as in the early 2000's, where you were forced to leave within 10 days of losing your job, but it's still not an easy or secure life.

Finally, a nice little overview comparing H1B and L1: http://www.immihelp.com/l1-visa/l1-visa-h1b-visa-comparison....

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#82

Post by incision »

Spooky23 wrote: post #44

All of the arguments in this thread are true. In areas where specialized knowledge is required, H-1B visas give you access to the global labor pool. You need that access because there may be only a few hundred of these specialists globally. IMO, the big abuse of foreign workers takes place in big enterprise environments. So bank X or government agency Y hires IGS or some other contractor to do something to some ancie…

My anecdotal experience working in that kind of "big enterprise environment" as an occasional COTR agrees with this 100%.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#83

Post by rada »

notlisted wrote: post #81
rada wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been i…

I am very confused. My source is a Dice salaries survey, and to refute said source, you link to a website trashing some guy named Mark Krikorian? Did you reply to my comment by mistake?

(1) Your link is to America's Voice, a Washington DC-based pro-immigration lobby organization, hardly an objective source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_Voice_(lobby)

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#84

Post by Retric »

notlisted wrote: post #81
rada wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been i…

The idea that immigration status is in any way linked to a company over the long term is clearly broken.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#85

Post by seestheday »

ktom wrote: post #21
PureSin wrote: post #2

As a Canadian who will be going to work in the US through a TN Visa. I wonder if Canadian hires are also seen as a "cheaper" alternative to hiring locally.

the class of status (TN) is less important than the mindset of your new employer. No visa class requires you to be paid under market (some even require that you are paid a wage comparable to an american) If an employer is trying to "maximize profits" through non-american workers, they will do it regardless of what status you hold. If an employer is simply trying to find the somebody to "do the job" regardless of stat…

I was in the US working on a TN for 1.5 years. At that time, TN's were not tied to the employer. I'm not sure if this is still the case. You just had to have a job in the field that you came in on. That said, you couldn't apply for a greencard while on a TN. For that you needed to get an H1B.

For our company I was paid the market rate, no different than a local hire.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#86

Post by notlisted »

hapless wrote: post #60
deskamess wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the freedom aspect is critical in any policy change. The 'freedom', or lack thereof, is tied to what the sponsoring employer controls - the green card process. I would propose something along the lines of: 1) If a person receives an H1-B he/she is free to work for anyone they want [Open Work Permit]. This kicks in immediately - no waiting period. On a job change the H1-B holder sends a job change notice to US…

1.) Your H-1B isn't tied to your employer except during the application/renewal process. The rest of the time you're free to move around. However, every prospective employer will want to know about your visa status, and that new employer will have to work on your H-1B renewal. You're at the same negotiating disadvantage, because you only really compete with other H-1B holders. 2.) There already exist smooth processes…

Re point #1) this is definitely new. This was NOT the case during the first bubble in 2000/2001, when H1B holders were forbidden to solicit new employment. Slavery was alive and well then.

Also, contrary to popular belief, there is NO grace period after losing ones job. If you are on an H1B, you have to find another H1B job and file for a change or extension while 'IN STATUS', or at least have the new employer apply for a temporary I-129 work permit().

Note: Some say the explosion of outsourcing to India after the first bubble was actually a result of hordes of South Asians, familiar with the US business climate, who were fired and sent back to India, resulting in a humongous braindrain.

() http://www.murthy.com/2012/09/18/h1b-layoff-strategy-when-ch...

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#87

Post by ChristianMarks »

rayiner wrote: post #67

Tech companies and their approach to labor is just sickening. They complain constantly that we don't let in enough H1B's. Are they offering to indemnify the government in case they need healthcare, unemployment; their children need public education, etc? They complain constantly that the publicly funded universities don't graduate enough STEM graduates to meet their needs. Think about that--they complain with no hint…

They complain constantly that the publicly funded universities don't graduate enough STEM graduates to meet their needs. Think about that--they complain with no hint of irony that the public doesn't train enough workers for them at the public expense!

At the same time, our esteemed corporate chieftains want the government out of their way. Our great economic miracle involves shifting the costs of production elsewhere. This is called putting the doctrine of individual responsibility into practice.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#88

Post by notlisted »

rada wrote: post #83
notlisted wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been i…

I am very confused. My source is a Dice salaries survey, and to refute said source, you link to a website trashing some guy named Mark Krikorian? Did you reply to my comment by mistake? (1) Your link is to America's Voice, a Washington DC-based pro-immigration lobby organization, hardly an objective source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_Voice_(lobby)

Sorry, I did. Read to the bottom of the page, re-read your post, hit reply.

The hardcore pro-immigration site I link to is to indicate that the "non-partisan" CIS is not non-partisan, which would be obvious too if you look at the CIS site which quotes mainly fox news segments. I don't necessarily agree with anything else they state.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#89

Post by rayiner »

blinkingled wrote: post #75
rayiner wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A country is a community. Multinational companies don't want people to believe that, but it's true. A community is entitled to control its membership. An H-1B is not just a contract between employer and employee. It is a contract between a foreigner and a community. We the community agree to make that person one of us. To educate his or her children at the public expense. To allow him or her to affect our elections.…

H1-B VISA has a limit of 6 years. H1-Bs get no social security benefits even though they pay social security taxes just like anyone else. Their children do not educate for free - they pay local, federal and city taxes just like anyone else. They aren't allowed to vote. You are thinking immigrants not H1-Bs. Due to severe shortage of immigrant VISAs and due to MNCs not filing Green Cards for most H1-Bs - there is a sm…

I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B.

But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's education. It costs $15-20k per year to educate a child in most states. Very few people pay that much in property taxes per year. The system depends on long-term commitments--you pay property taxes during many years when you don't have kids, then get the benefit for the years your kids are in school.

My point is not to try and make distinctions about whether the average H1-B contributes enough to the tax base. I'm sure they do. But that's not the point. My point is that with any given H1-B, the community takes certain obligations to that person. It's not just a matter between the employer and the immigrant.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#90

Post by jrockway »

I don't think this is discrimination against Americans: it's just discrimination against people who price themselves higher. H1-B workers are glad to be in the US and are willing to accept substantially less cash compensation as a result. Americans already have US citizenship and want to be paid in money. Companies don't like spending money but the government allows them to spend "citizenship points" on employees instead, so they do and here we are. (And, you can threaten employees you don't like with deportation, which is much scarier and perhaps more motivating than "you're laid off and will have to collect unemployement while waiting for your new job to start. remember to get out of bed for a few hours a day so you don't get bedsores!" It certainly prevents people from asking for raises, equity, etc.)

Ultimately, you get what you pay for. The problem is that the market hasn't figured this out yet, since good programmers are so few and far between that most programming-related projects fail anyway. If you're going to fail, you might as well fail with cheap labor that won't talk back instead of with expensive labor mixed with cheap labor, right?

Post reply on HN