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Indifference is a power (2015)

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Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#11

Post by everdrive »

Actual stoicism is kind of darkly funny. Here's a word-for-word (translated, of course) excerpt from Epictetus:

"It's possible to understand what nature wants from situations where we're no different from other people. For example, when a slave breaks someone else's cup we're instantly ready to say 'These things happen.' So when it's a cup of yours that gets broken, appreciate that you have the same attitude as when it's someone else's cup. Transfer the principle to things of greater importance. Has someone else's child or wife died? There's no one who wouldn't say 'So it goes.' But when it's one's own child or wife who's died, the automatic response is 'Oh, no!' and 'Poor me!' It's essential to remember how we feel when we hear of this happening to others."

There are a few (darkly) funny claims in here:

- _ANYONE_ would be pretty indifferent to hear that someone's wife or child has died.

- You should feel the same about your wife or child as someone else's.

- Potentially, you should feel the same way about your wife as you do a cup.

I'm being cheeky with the last one, and I don't think there's _nothing_ to the quote above, however I cannot imagine most people being able to adopt this view, or seeing it as a view which _should_ be adopted.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#12

Post by parpfish »

drcongo wrote: post #10
parpfish wrote: post #4

I can’t help but think that the rise in stoicisms popularity among manosphere types because it lets them repackage a lot of more undesirable masculine traits under a legitimate label— You’re not allowed to feel things. Emotions make you weak. Just suck it up and power through. Bottle it up. Whether those traits a “real stoicism” or not doesn’t matter, because that’s the way it gets spread through TikTok length discou…

That's so far away from what stoic practice is. Is that really what TikTok tells you?

The modern/online resurgence of stoicism isn’t driven by people that have studied actual books.

It’s being driven by people that are making tiktoks after they learned about it by watching a five minute YouTube video. It’s a very lossy game of telephone.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#13

Post by everdrive »

SirFatty wrote: post #7
parpfish wrote: post #4

I can’t help but think that the rise in stoicisms popularity among manosphere types because it lets them repackage a lot of more undesirable masculine traits under a legitimate label— You’re not allowed to feel things. Emotions make you weak. Just suck it up and power through. Bottle it up. Whether those traits a “real stoicism” or not doesn’t matter, because that’s the way it gets spread through TikTok length discou…

"Just suck it up and power through" I don't feel that is a "undesirable masculine trait", I live by that and still "feel things" and have emotions.

One thing that's worth noting is that Epictetus himself was a slave, and I think it's informed a lot of his thoughts. For him, true freedom is being able to overcome the events of the world. You may not be able to control whether or not you're a slave, but (to Epictetus) you can control how you feel about being a slave, and that is true freedom.

ie, he saw the world as full of misery and difficulty, and saw modifying your internal experience as the only possible path forward.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#14

Post by throwaw12 »

everdrive wrote: post #11

Actual stoicism is kind of darkly funny. Here's a word-for-word (translated, of course) excerpt from Epictetus: "It's possible to understand what nature wants from situations where we're no different from other people. For example, when a slave breaks someone else's cup we're instantly ready to say 'These things happen.' So when it's a cup of yours that gets broken, appreciate that you have the same attitude as when…

IMO, its not dark.

How I perceived it, Epictetus wants to say: things happen and you are on a spectrum of emotions based on the context (in case of death, how close you were to the person), try to minimize the length of the spectrum.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#15

Post by PedroBatista »

Stoicism is like recommending having a couple drinks ( literally ) to a "normal" person with mild social anxiety with a need to go out in the World and live life.

It works and it's good advice.

Unfortunately it gets recommended to everybody at every point in their lives, which include alcoholics and people in crisis.

In a more direct way: Stop with this "no emotion" "I'm a fortress" bullshit. It only helps a narrow group of people in specific circumstances of their lives but wreaks havoc on everybody else because it's misplaced and mostly a lie or at least a very incomplete picture.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#16

Post by confounder »

drakenot wrote: post #9
parpfish wrote: post #4

I can’t help but think that the rise in stoicisms popularity among manosphere types because it lets them repackage a lot of more undesirable masculine traits under a legitimate label— You’re not allowed to feel things. Emotions make you weak. Just suck it up and power through. Bottle it up. Whether those traits a “real stoicism” or not doesn’t matter, because that’s the way it gets spread through TikTok length discou…

I think that’s more a critique of the modern caricature of stoicism than of Stoicism itself. Classical Stoicism isn’t about suppressing emotions. It’s about understanding your emotions, examining where they come from, and choosing how you respond rather than being ruled by them.

I think this is the most concisely accurate description of Stoicism I've yet seen; well done.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#17

Post by s1mplicissimus »

everdrive wrote: post #11

Actual stoicism is kind of darkly funny. Here's a word-for-word (translated, of course) excerpt from Epictetus: "It's possible to understand what nature wants from situations where we're no different from other people. For example, when a slave breaks someone else's cup we're instantly ready to say 'These things happen.' So when it's a cup of yours that gets broken, appreciate that you have the same attitude as when…

In more modern terms, I would call what Epictetus does here a reframing. It's used in therapy, marketing, PR and presumably other areas as well. Essentially it's saying "well, but if you look at it $this way$, it's not so bad, is it?" .

When strangers tell you that, it's very often with a malicious motivation, but it can be a helpful tool for coping with your own stuff.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#18

Post by prox »

vannucci wrote: post #5
parpfish wrote: post #4

I can’t help but think that the rise in stoicisms popularity among manosphere types because it lets them repackage a lot of more undesirable masculine traits under a legitimate label— You’re not allowed to feel things. Emotions make you weak. Just suck it up and power through. Bottle it up. Whether those traits a “real stoicism” or not doesn’t matter, because that’s the way it gets spread through TikTok length discou…

This is the exact phrasing I was just searching for, and I fear the same thing that this pop stoicism revival is trying to formalize some really asocial behaviors.

Reminds of “We belief something first, and then we pick our reasons for it.”

People aren’t really engaging with their philosophy (“love of wisdom”) but pick and choose so it reinforces what they already believe. They don’t exactly think about it they stay mildly glossing some concepts in the popular amateur/ social media sphere.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#20

Post by N_Lens »

PedroBatista wrote: post #15

Stoicism is like recommending having a couple drinks ( literally ) to a "normal" person with mild social anxiety with a need to go out in the World and live life. It works and it's good advice. Unfortunately it gets recommended to everybody at every point in their lives, which include alcoholics and people in crisis. In a more direct way: Stop with this "no emotion" "I'm a fortress" bullshit. It only helps a narrow g…

Very well put!
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