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39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

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Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#11

Post by PinguTS »

lnsru wrote: post #8
Animats wrote: post #2

This is painful. They got a used solder mask holder, a Lumen pick and place machine, a bunch of old Siemens feeders, and a small automatic reflow oven. All these tools needed major work. Everything with firmware needed firmware mods. Everything else needed assembly or major cleaning. Everything needed adjustment. They had to 3D print their own solder paste squeegee. They're six months in and still trying to produce o…

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

Funfact: If you are working in the industry, you know that there are many companies who produce electronics in Europe in general and some even in Germany.

Bosch, Continental, Siemens, Palfinger, FAUN, Webasto, Phoenix Contact, Beckhoff, …

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#12

Post by crote »

lnsru wrote: post #8
Animats wrote: post #2

This is painful. They got a used solder mask holder, a Lumen pick and place machine, a bunch of old Siemens feeders, and a small automatic reflow oven. All these tools needed major work. Everything with firmware needed firmware mods. Everything else needed assembly or major cleaning. Everything needed adjustment. They had to 3D print their own solder paste squeegee. They're six months in and still trying to produce o…

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

The regulations argument is a red herring: those mostly apply to electronics products sold in the EU, not manufactured in the EU. You have exactly the same burden trying to sell CN-manufactured hardware in the EU.

Worker's shortage is a real problem in China as well. Their approach? Automate everything. Focus on manufacturing 1000s of designs using a handful of standard formulas, instead of treating every design as bespoke. There's no reason this couldn't be done in the EU.

It's going to require a serious cultural shift, but given the right incentive I see no reason why it would be impossible.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#13

Post by crote »

PinguTS wrote: post #11
lnsru wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

Funfact: If you are working in the industry, you know that there are many companies who produce electronics in Europe in general and some even in Germany. Bosch, Continental, Siemens, Palfinger, FAUN, Webasto, Phoenix Contact, Beckhoff, …

The problem is the gap between hobbyist project and hundred-thousand-unit production run.

You can't easily and cheaply get 10, 100, or 1000 units manufactured in the EU the way you can in China. This pretty much kills hardware startups and scaleups wanting to do local manufacturing.

If you're not a multinational or have an essentially-unlimited budget for your small-scale run, you have to outsource it to China.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#14

Post by crote »

Animats wrote: post #7
napkinartist wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are saying the same thing they said -- it doesn't scale. It's not how you build a large factory. They acknowledge this and pretty quickly move on to say that they are aiming for smaller and sustainable. They even specifically call out why they chose not to use a conveyor based oven in the video. Basically they believe they can be price reasonable at small scales, small batches. Build process knowledge and experti…

It's not possible to make a competitively priced product that way. What are you going to do, sell artisanal circuit boards on Etsy? Here's a small US-based PCB board and assembly facility in the US, in Hesperia, California.[1] Looks like it might have 20 to 30 employees from the building picture. This is probably about as small as a viable business of this type gets. It doesn't have to be done in a huge plant like JL…

That depends on your definition of "competitive", doesn't it?

Being 3x as expensive as China but 0.1x as expensive as current small-scale EU manufacturing can be extremely competitive. Plenty of people looking for <1000 unit runs would be willing to pay extra for a "made in EU" label.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#15

Post by Joel_Mckay »

lnsru wrote: post #8
Animats wrote: post #2

This is painful. They got a used solder mask holder, a Lumen pick and place machine, a bunch of old Siemens feeders, and a small automatic reflow oven. All these tools needed major work. Everything with firmware needed firmware mods. Everything else needed assembly or major cleaning. Everything needed adjustment. They had to 3D print their own solder paste squeegee. They're six months in and still trying to produce o…

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

Not sure why your post was buried. As the EU does have a lot of rules, but if a product is reasonably made its almost the same cost as the US market entry. Robert Feranec covers a lot of the more obscure EU rules:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTPb7etzOmA

Designs that contain China parts are often immediately disqualified from most trade exemptions. The landed cost can bump gadget retail prices too high in some countries. YMMV =3

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#16

Post by consp »

PinguTS wrote: post #11
lnsru wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

Funfact: If you are working in the industry, you know that there are many companies who produce electronics in Europe in general and some even in Germany. Bosch, Continental, Siemens, Palfinger, FAUN, Webasto, Phoenix Contact, Beckhoff, …

I'd add Infineon to that list, formerly Siemens.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#17

Post by friendzis »

PinguTS wrote: post #11
lnsru wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

Funfact: If you are working in the industry, you know that there are many companies who produce electronics in Europe in general and some even in Germany. Bosch, Continental, Siemens, Palfinger, FAUN, Webasto, Phoenix Contact, Beckhoff, …

As far as I am aware the European plants survive mostly on decent QA and regulated industries. When the cost of a defect slipping QA is high, it can be cheaper to operate European plant with intra-step quality controls than manufacture in China and slap thorough QA on top.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#18

Post by PinguTS »

crote wrote: post #13
PinguTS wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funfact: If you are working in the industry, you know that there are many companies who produce electronics in Europe in general and some even in Germany. Bosch, Continental, Siemens, Palfinger, FAUN, Webasto, Phoenix Contact, Beckhoff, …

The problem is the gap between hobbyist project and hundred-thousand-unit production run. You can't easily and cheaply get 10, 100, or 1000 units manufactured in the EU the way you can in China. This pretty much kills hardware startups and scaleups wanting to do local manufacturing. If you're not a multinational or have an essentially-unlimited budget for your small-scale run, you have to outsource it to China.

I work with companies, which have a more like small scale production. They are about 100 or so workers. Yes, this is also possible. They grew their business in the last 25 years, when it was even harder to produce something than these days. At least one of these business have PCB suppliers in the EU, which helped them in the post COVID crises where everybody struggled with supply.

I just named some big name brands. I also know mid-size and smaller brands.

Building your business and getting your stuff together is hard for any startup in any business field.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#19

Post by Joel_Mckay »

crote wrote: post #14
Animats wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not possible to make a competitively priced product that way. What are you going to do, sell artisanal circuit boards on Etsy? Here's a small US-based PCB board and assembly facility in the US, in Hesperia, California.[1] Looks like it might have 20 to 30 employees from the building picture. This is probably about as small as a viable business of this type gets. It doesn't have to be done in a huge plant like JL…

That depends on your definition of "competitive", doesn't it? Being 3x as expensive as China but 0.1x as expensive as current small-scale EU manufacturing can be extremely competitive. Plenty of people looking for <1000 unit runs would be willing to pay extra for a "made in EU" label.

If the only service a CM brings to the table is cost reduction, than its a doomed business model.

Rule #23: Don't compete to be at the bottom, as you just might actually win.

Have a great day =3

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#20

Post by throwaway132448 »

lnsru wrote: post #8
Animats wrote: post #2

This is painful. They got a used solder mask holder, a Lumen pick and place machine, a bunch of old Siemens feeders, and a small automatic reflow oven. All these tools needed major work. Everything with firmware needed firmware mods. Everything else needed assembly or major cleaning. Everything needed adjustment. They had to 3D print their own solder paste squeegee. They're six months in and still trying to produce o…

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

You sound like you're stuck in a rut. I don't see any of this.
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