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AI is a business model stress test

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Re: AI is a business model stress test

#101

Post by venndeezl »

drivebyhooting wrote: post #4

In my opinion LLMs are intellectual property theft. Just as if I started distributing copies of books. This substantially reduces the incentive for the creation of new IP. All written text, art work, etc needs to come imbued with a GPL style license: if you train your model on this, your weights and training code must be published.

In my opinion information wants to be free. It's wild to me seeing the tech world veer into hyper-capitalism and IP protectionism. Complete 180 from the 00s.

IMO copyright laws should be rewritten to bring copyright inline with the rest of the economy.

Plumbers are not claiming use fees from the pipes they installed a decade ago. Doctor isn't getting paid by a 70 year old for saving the 70 year old when they were in a car accident at age 50.

Why should intellectual property authors be given extreme ownership over behavior then?

In the Constitution Congress is allowed to protect with copyright "for a limited time".

The status quo of life of author + 99 years means works can be copyrighted for many peoples entire lives. In effect unlimited protection.

Why is society on the hook to preserve a political norm that materially benefits so few?

Because the screen tells us the end is nigh! and giant foot will crush us! if we move on from old America. Sad and pathetic acquiescence to propaganda.

My fellow Americans; must we be such unserious people all the time?

This hypernormalized finance engineered, "I am my job! We make line go up here!" culture is a joke.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#102

Post by terribleidea »

bob1029 wrote: post #3
techblueberry wrote: post #2

This feels like the OpenSSL problem where we do probably need some kind of industry organization to maintain these things. There’s a chicken and the egg problem that these AI companies need someone to keep maintaining tailwind if they want it to keep working in their prompts. Maybe that limits the ability for the head of tailwind to run their own business and make more income, but something gotta give.

> we do probably need some kind of industry organization to maintain these things. In the case of CSS, we already have that: https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Overview.en.html

The problem here is that the w3c sucks a fat one, and they've failed to build software specs that don't require an ecosystem thousands of libraries to make using CSS, etc. simple or efficient.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#103

Post by xg15 »

> So where does value live now? In what requires showing up, not just specifying. Not what you can specify once, but what requires showing up again and again.

Sounds like even more incentive for "managing" problems and creating business models around them instead of solving them.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#104

Post by jen729w »

venndeezl wrote: post #101
drivebyhooting wrote: post #4

In my opinion LLMs are intellectual property theft. Just as if I started distributing copies of books. This substantially reduces the incentive for the creation of new IP. All written text, art work, etc needs to come imbued with a GPL style license: if you train your model on this, your weights and training code must be published.

In my opinion information wants to be free. It's wild to me seeing the tech world veer into hyper-capitalism and IP protectionism. Complete 180 from the 00s. IMO copyright laws should be rewritten to bring copyright inline with the rest of the economy. Plumbers are not claiming use fees from the pipes they installed a decade ago. Doctor isn't getting paid by a 70 year old for saving the 70 year old when they were in…

> In my opinion information wants to be free.

But I still need to pay rent.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#105

Post by azangru »

znnajdla wrote: post #100
azangru wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If suddenly CSS became pleasant to use, Tailwind would be in a rough spot. CSS is pleasant to use. I know I find it pleasant to use; and I know there are quite a few frontend developers who do too. I didn't pay much attention to tailwind, until suddenly I realized that it has spread like wildfire and now is everywhere. What drove that growth? Which groups were the first adopters of tailwind; how did they grow; when…

I used plain CSS for more than a decade and felt the benefits of Tailwind within 10 minutes of getting started. What fueled the growth of Tailwind is that it makes web development palpably easier.

Do you remember what made it click for you? What was the hard part of writing plain CSS that tailwind made significantly easier?

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#106

Post by kachapopopow »

ronsor wrote: post #87
kachapopopow wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPL however, does put restrictions on it, even the tokenizer. It was specifically crafted in a way where even if you do not have any GPL licensed sourcecode in your project, but it was built on top of it you are still binded by GPL limitations. the only reason usermode is not affected is because they have an exclusion for it and only via defined communication protocol, if you go around it or attempt to put a workarou…

> GPL however, does put restrictions on it, even the tokenizer. It was specifically crafted in a way where even if you do not have any GPL licensed sourcecode in your project, but it was built on top of it you are still binded by GPL limitations. This is not how copyright law works. The GPL is a copyright license, as stated by the FSF. Something which is not subject to copyright cannot be subject to a copyright licen…

GPL is not only a copyright license, it also covers multiple types of intellectual property rights. Especially when you consider GPL-3 which has explicit IP protection while GPL-2 is implicit, so yah you're partially right for GPL-2 and wrong for GPL-3.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#107

Post by handfuloflight »

Culonavirus wrote: post #81
antirez wrote: post #39

> You can't prompt 99.95% uptime on Black Friday. Neither can you prompt your way to keeping a site secure, updated, and running. This is completely wrong. Agents will not just be able to write code, like they do now, but will also be able to handle operations, security, continuing to check, and improve the systems, tirelessly.

To be able to do this requires perfect domain knowledge AND environment knowledge AND be able to think deeply about logical dominoes (event propagation through the system, you know, the small stuff that crashes cloudflare for the entire planet for example). Please wake me up when Shopify lets a bunch of agentic LLMs run their backends without human control and constant supervision.

The extreme here is thinking machines will do everything. The reality is likely far closer to less humans being needed.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#108

Post by ronsor »

kachapopopow wrote: post #106
ronsor wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GPL however, does put restrictions on it, even the tokenizer. It was specifically crafted in a way where even if you do not have any GPL licensed sourcecode in your project, but it was built on top of it you are still binded by GPL limitations. This is not how copyright law works. The GPL is a copyright license, as stated by the FSF. Something which is not subject to copyright cannot be subject to a copyright licen…

GPL is not only a copyright license, it also covers multiple types of intellectual property rights. Especially when you consider GPL-3 which has explicit IP protection while GPL-2 is implicit, so yah you're partially right for GPL-2 and wrong for GPL-3.

It's true that GPLv3 covers patents, but it is still primarily a copyright license.

The tokenizer's tokens aren't patented, for sure. They can't be trademarked (they don't identify a product or service). They aren't a trade secret (the data is public). They aren't copyrighted (not a creative work). And the GPL explicitly preserves fair use rights, so there are no contractual restrictions either.

A tokenizer is effectively a list of the top-n most common byte sequences. There's simply no basis in law for it to be subject to copyright or any other IP law in the average situation.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#109

Post by venndeezl »

jen729w wrote: post #104
venndeezl wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion information wants to be free. It's wild to me seeing the tech world veer into hyper-capitalism and IP protectionism. Complete 180 from the 00s. IMO copyright laws should be rewritten to bring copyright inline with the rest of the economy. Plumbers are not claiming use fees from the pipes they installed a decade ago. Doctor isn't getting paid by a 70 year old for saving the 70 year old when they were in…

> In my opinion information wants to be free. But I still need to pay rent.

Well like a plumber then you should string together one paid job after another. Not do a job once and collect forever.

Rent is a political problem.

Perhaps invest in the courage to confront some droopy faced Boomers in Congress.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#110

Post by drivebyhooting »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #18
Dilettante_ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd substantially reduce the incentive for the training of new models.

So what? Figure it out. They have billions in investor funding and we’re supposed to just let them keep behaving this way at our expense? Facebook was busted torrenting all sorts of things in violation of laws/regulations that would lead to my internet being cut off by my ISP. They did it at scale and faced no consequences. Scraping sites, taking down public libraries, torrenting, they just do whatever they want with…

Meanwhile look at what happened to Aaron Schwartz. There’s no justice until corporations are held accountable.
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