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Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

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Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#881

Post by bambax »

dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

Not just Russia and China. Musk does Nazi salutes and Grok promotes pedophilia. Trump invades countries and talks about taking over Greenland, which is part of Europe. The US are no less of a threat than Russia.

Contrary to widespread belief, Europe has the means to fight those threats. It just chooses not to, for reasons I don't understand.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#882

Post by idopmstuff »

croes wrote: post #447
idopmstuff wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I dislike JD Vance as much as the next guy, but I don't see how it's unreasonable to appeal to the federal government for assistance in dealing with international legal issues. That's very much in the government's remit.

Lawyers are for legal issues. Do you call your government if you get a fine in a foreign country? Unless it’s life threatening I doubt that.

Well first off, generally if you are arrested in another country you would in fact call your government. Most people do this, and it'd be foolish not to. If you get sued for a large amount of money or defrauded or face any number of other issues, also reasonable to call your government.

Anyway, not a great comparison because you're talking about legal regulations governing speech on the internet. This isn't a jaywalking ticket, it's a deeply complex regulatory issue involving politics, law and international relations. It's also an issue that the current administration has shown interest in, so if you're an affected American business it would be pretty foolish not to seek help there.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#883

Post by hansvm »

This seems easy enough to solve. Every time the football oligarchy catches too many IPs in their dragnet, you can accidentally drag all the legitimate football exit nodes into your DNS blacklist. The only way to be sure DNS doesn't work for pirated football is to ensure it doesn't work for any football.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#884

Post by bambax »

CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742
dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

> I don't want my politicians deciding

The whole concept of democracy is based on this: you elect politicians, they decide. If you don't like that, you don't like democracy. Which is fine, but then you don't get to defend it either as the best system under the sun, etc.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#885

Post by bambax »

babarock wrote: post #764
dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

I think this is moving the goal post. Cloudflare isn't challenging the need to restrict access to some websites, it is challenging who has the right to decide. Quoting the tweet: > We believe Italy, like all countries, has a right to regulate the content on networks inside its borders. But they must do so following the Rule of Law and principles of Due Process. I live in Italy, I'm a citizen. I don't feel any safer h…

Bureaucrats are a problem, but they're eventually accountable to the people. Companies are accountable to shareholders located in another country, who don't give a damn about whatever so long as the money keeps coming. I choose bureaucrats against businessmen anytime.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#886

Post by nurettin »

Moldoteck wrote: post #850
nurettin wrote: post #702

Their dns service is used for circumventing illegal sports streams. And when a government institution wants to prevent that (ideally, before the end of that match) it is an evil cabal and cf is the protector of free internet and tags #elonmusk This must be a joke.

banning them outside of italy is evil. Fining 200% of revenue from italy is evil too

Banning them or not banning them has nothing to do with evil, it has to do with due process. CF complies with lawful protection against piracy or gets tfo. For me, throwing a tantrum on twitter, riling people up and telling daddy elon doesn't change any of these definitions.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#887

Post by nozzlegear »

pelorat wrote: post #734
simianparrot wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good players are the US on this front. I say this as a European. Europe at large is in a dark place in terms of freedom of speech, the press, and other issues like immigration. And the US might eventually have to be the ones to apply force to hold our leaders accountable, ironic as that is given history.

They can't even say "fuck" on TV in the USA, and god forbit a female nipple

That's just a cultural difference between Europeans and Americans, it has nothing to do with freedom of speech in the US.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#888

Post by lucianbr »

vouwfietsman wrote: post #874
CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

> I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself. No you can't, all of this stuff is designed to influence you without you knowing it, or you would not be influenced. This is like thinking advertisements have no effect on you. People pay good money because they know it is effective, it is influencing you, you cannot decide for yourself.

So who gets to decide? Someone who is above influence? Who is that?

There has to be a lot more nuance. I clearly see that both Putin and the CCP do a lot of things predicated on the exact claim that their respective populations can not be left to decide for themselves. "People left free would make bad decisions, we the rulers are morally obligated to force them into a good path". I think this is the ostensible meaning of "freedom is slavery".

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#889

Post by GoblinSlayer »

vouwfietsman wrote: post #874
CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

> I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself. No you can't, all of this stuff is designed to influence you without you knowing it, or you would not be influenced. This is like thinking advertisements have no effect on you. People pay good money because they know it is effective, it is influencing you, you cannot decide for yourself.

Doubtful.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#890

Post by lucianbr »

saubeidl wrote: post #839
CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

Because freedom of speech was always a misguided creed at best. The speech of the manipulator is not the same as the speech of the expert and they shouldn't be given the same treatment, lest you want psychological warfare waged on your nation. American free speech extremists like these tech CEOs are either willing patsies or useful idiots in the hybrid warfare against Europe.

What rules can you possibly have that distinguish the expert and the manipulator in all cases, without abuse?

I think free speech comes from the same base as universal vote: any selection mechanism would be corrupted and in the end cause more harm than good. That is why the solution is to let everyone speak / vote. If you have some uncorruptible people or mechanism for selection, just use that to make policy decisions directly.

I think the solution is to elevate critical thinking in the populations, so people can be less vulnerable to psychological warfare. Otherwise you're just picking a different manipulator - whoever writes or enforces the speech limits.

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