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Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

sciencedaily.com

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Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#171

Post by cgriswald »

smeej wrote: post #87
yomismoaqui wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

> There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period. Gosh it must be nice to have at least an ordinary amount of executive function skills. Is it really this easy for neurotypical people to build routines? That's really all it takes? I don't see how this removes willpower at all. It just determines what time you have to use it.

Willpower is what you use when you’re allowed choice and know you should make the good choice but actually feel like choosing the bad choice. The trick to good discipline is to never allow it to be a choice. There are no excuses. There is no negotiation. It just is the same way the sun rises or the tax man comes. Good discipline is a skill you develop and it is far easier than trying to live via something as temperamental as willpower.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#172

Post by bicepjai »

yomismoaqui wrote: post #68
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

This is a great quote

>> Motivation is fleeting but routine persists.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#173

Post by joe_the_user »

gehsty wrote: post #19

If it helps anyone I take antidepressants and have had a positive experience with them. Depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance and no amount of exercise or talking about it will fix it. One of the most frustrating things when your really low is people giving advice like do exercise to feel better - please don’t do this.

I support people taking antidepressants if it helps them.

But I have to say the "chemical imbalance" theory either means no more than "depression responds to an antidepressant (sometimes)" or it is false/meaningless. Neither neurologists nor psychologists have a sufficiently detailed understanding of the workings of the brain to make such a claim.

Again, I'm glad drugs work for you. I would note that there three ways drugs can go for people; working with few problems, not working, working but with significant physical and/or psychological side-effects. Especially, taking any substance daily for the rest of one's life can stress the organs responsible for digesting/processing regardless of whether than substance is otherwise a great fix.

So I think we need to look beyond a glib "this fixes it for everyone" rhetoric even if this fixes it for you (and yeah, some of my friends should at least drugs, I'll admit).

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#174

Post by owenpalmer »

Extremely disappointing analysis in the article and also the cited paper's abstract [0]. The only way this data could possibly hold any value is if they found a way to control for how depression might influence an individual's likelihood of choosing to participate in the trial in the first place, as well as trial completion rates.

Even an amateur could read the headline and instantly understand this critical point the experiment's design, and yet it's not even acknowledged under the "Risk of bias" section.

[0] https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#175

Post by machomaster »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #117
cheald wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still requires willpower, but to use a metaphor, it's much easier to travel down a well-trod path than it is to cut a new path through the jungle. Repetition and consistency establishes the path, so the willpower required to travel down it the next day is reduced over time. Establishing a pre-set time and committing to that time ahead of time removes the "will I or won't I" decision at "go time", when you're most…

This method requires a significant amount of executive function. My body doesn't feel the passage of time consistently. So my mind is never prepared to switch activities when it needs to. And there are times my brain stops working on a particular task and nothing can get it started again. It's like a leg going out, you just can't stand on it. This isn't occasionally where habit could be picked back up. This has been…

Do you ever feel unmotivated to go to the toilet despite needing to? Has this lack of motivation ever stopped you from getting from your chair?

What modern people usually lack is not time, but lack of energy. Usually this is thought as the energy to do stuff (like coding a side hussle in the evening). But often it manifests in a lack of energy:

1. to make a decision (to do something)

2. to slow down, to stop the current activity and to think with the rational mind.

So you need to recognize these things and do certain decisions beforehand to solve the problem. Stuff like:

1. Go to the gym in the morning, when you still have the decision energy.

2. Create a habit, linking a new habit with the old ones, in order to decrease the energy expenditure

3. Increase the stakes, like getting a gym buddy

4. Decide stuff beforehand. Pack the bag, set up the alarm clock (to go to gym, to go to sleep)

5. When you are tired, actually rest. Don't turn the tv on, don't scroll social media, stop touching yourself via phone. If you are tired, eat, go to gym or a walk, go to sleep or simply sit in your chair or lay on the sofa looking at the walls. I guarantee, watching at the wall for 30 minutes straight will give you great motivation to do something else more productive. Don't let the monkey in you convince you to do the unproductive things I mentioned. Stay strong and make a rational decision what to do instead of looking at the wall. Do the right thing, not the thing that may feel nice in the midst of it.

6. Take care of the nutrition/sleep in order to increase the energy reserves

I hope that helps.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#176

Post by worldsayshi »

smeej wrote: post #87
yomismoaqui wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

> There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period. Gosh it must be nice to have at least an ordinary amount of executive function skills. Is it really this easy for neurotypical people to build routines? That's really all it takes? I don't see how this removes willpower at all. It just determines what time you have to use it.

I'm not claiming this works for everyone but what sometimes work for me to form a routine is to do the thing but without committing effort to it. I.e. go to the gym but you only promise yourself to go there, not actually spend effort there. Any actual exercise you then do is a bonus, not a "payment on your promise".

I think it can be generalized as:

Find the thing to do that doesn't require much effort but puts you in the context of doing the effortful thing. Do that thing. See if you "want" to do the effortful thing. Otherwise go home.

Cleaning? Put the vacuum in your hands and see if something happens.

At least I think that's how it works for me.

The points when it's hardest to make it work is when there's lots of distractions. Like when you try to get into a routine of doing work at a computer.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#177

Post by Forgeties79 »

tdeck wrote: post #151
bluerooibos wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you need to do is go to sleep before 12 every single night and wake up at 7am without fail, hit the gym and crank out a few sets of squats, hit the pool and the sauna, read a chapter of that book, and then cook yourself an amazing breakfast, all before 9am. If you're a real go-getter, though, you'd wake up at 6am and do some vibe coding for an hour on that side hustle. Super simple.

Don't forget to spend a few minutes journalling self-affirmations. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7qjN3KF8U

Was waiting for this to come up lol

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#178

Post by thewebguyd »

iammjm wrote: post #168
thewebguyd wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> figuring out how to not require willpower This goes for coping with a lot of executive function problems and disorders. Part of how I have to manage my rather severe ADHD is specifically crafting an environment that's as ADHD friendly as possible, much to my wife's dismay. That means nothing can ever be hidden away or out of sight, otherwise I will immediately forget it exists. It means every bill must be on autopa…

I also have ADHD and i also find living as minimally as possible very helpful. Could you elaborate on more of those tactics that work for you? I am also curious how you apply this to your work life

Basically things that eliminate friction. I wear only slip on shoes because having to tie & untie is friction. I replaced our kitchen cupboards with those glass window ones so I can see whats inside every cabinet without opening it. I have multiple laundry bins, so I actually don't put clothes away in a dresser when done. I just leave them in the bin, pull out what I'm going to wear, and then have separate bin(s) for dirty. Eliminates a huge friction point (folding & hanging) when it comes to doing laundry.

For work, that's mostly just luck. I'm a solo sysadmin for a non-tech company, and I work from home so I have a great deal of freedom. Outside of interruptions for help desk level tickets/emails (which suck and do throw off my flow), no one really oversees what I do and I set my own deadlines for the most part so I can work when and however it suits me to take advantage of days where I have good flow state.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#179

Post by econ »

cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

I hear ice swimming also works.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#180

Post by BoneShard »

bluerooibos wrote: post #109
smeej wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period. Gosh it must be nice to have at least an ordinary amount of executive function skills. Is it really this easy for neurotypical people to build routines? That's really all it takes? I don't see how this removes willpower at all. It just determines what time you have to use it.

All you need to do is go to sleep before 12 every single night and wake up at 7am without fail, hit the gym and crank out a few sets of squats, hit the pool and the sauna, read a chapter of that book, and then cook yourself an amazing breakfast, all before 9am. If you're a real go-getter, though, you'd wake up at 6am and do some vibe coding for an hour on that side hustle. Super simple.

and not have any kids.
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