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Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

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Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#111

Post by shevy-java »

yomismoaqui wrote: post #68
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

> saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time.

> Routine can be used for bad things but also for good things.

So your willpower causes such routines to work. Not everyone works that way. And not everyone not working that way has depression. I don't think one can generalise this to "routines will fix your depression".

> but after some repetitions your mind (and body) begin to get used

I also don't buy into that. A good counter-example is tobacco smokers. Some manage to quit the moment they decide they want to quit, with no substitutes. Others try with substitute and interestingly for many who try, that also works, but for some it does not. And some can barely ever quit smoking. And a lot of this has to do with how their brain works.

Matthew Perry spoke about that with regard to his alcohol addiction. People are different. I personally never started with smoking, for instance, because I never trusted myself to be able to (want to) quit again - so at the least I was consistent in this regard (plus also, because in our youth, so many others started to smoke suddenly, and I always felt it was a very stupid reason to smoke merely because others would do so, even at an early age. Their rationales would not be mine and I failed to see the point in adopting their positions and make them my position).

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#112

Post by bluGill »

PaulHoule wrote: post #18
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you think the effects of drugs is universal? Exercise is a side effect free treatment that works for some people so it’s worth a shot because it sometimes works.

I'd argue that depression kills and optimal therapy is: anti-depressants, exercise AND talking therapy and the time to start is NOW. I wouldn't knock the effectiveness of any of them with the caveats that: (1) you can get anti-depressants from you primary care doc, the best practice is to start on something, ramp up your dose and try something different if it is not working or you don't like the sides. I really thoug…

The military does insane cardio because when the enemy knows where you are sometimes you have to run hard and fast in hopes you can get to safety before they can kill you. I've known people who likely would have died in Afghanistan without that insane cardio.

it might help with stress too, but that isn't as clear

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#114

Post by specproc »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #76
yomismoaqui wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

I bet simply having a dog needing walking tips the scales into an exercise routine at some level.

God yeah. So much healthier and happier in my forties than my thirties, and it's all down to my executive assistant.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#115

Post by trueismywork »

yomismoaqui wrote: post #68
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

The same routine for good things can turn into being a bad thing. Brcause it can make you inflexible. So there's a trade off there.

For me, it was when I was in a situation where I had to work 80 hours a week to keep my job. I had to get rid of my routine for 8 months and I am happy I did it otherwise I would he poor today.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#116

Post by exe34 »

trueismywork wrote: post #115
yomismoaqui wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

The same routine for good things can turn into being a bad thing. Brcause it can make you inflexible. So there's a trade off there. For me, it was when I was in a situation where I had to work 80 hours a week to keep my job. I had to get rid of my routine for 8 months and I am happy I did it otherwise I would he poor today.

Being inflexible is only a problem for other people! :P

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#117

Post by kayodelycaon »

cheald wrote: post #95
smeej wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period. Gosh it must be nice to have at least an ordinary amount of executive function skills. Is it really this easy for neurotypical people to build routines? That's really all it takes? I don't see how this removes willpower at all. It just determines what time you have to use it.

It still requires willpower, but to use a metaphor, it's much easier to travel down a well-trod path than it is to cut a new path through the jungle. Repetition and consistency establishes the path, so the willpower required to travel down it the next day is reduced over time. Establishing a pre-set time and committing to that time ahead of time removes the "will I or won't I" decision at "go time", when you're most…

This method requires a significant amount of executive function.

My body doesn't feel the passage of time consistently. So my mind is never prepared to switch activities when it needs to.

And there are times my brain stops working on a particular task and nothing can get it started again. It's like a leg going out, you just can't stand on it.

This isn't occasionally where habit could be picked back up. This has been a problem every day of my life.

In my experience, this has been the death of every bit advice I've gotten from a neurotypical person. A lot of them keep circling back to discipline or trying harder as a solution to a problem they can't make sense of. Lack of understanding isn't their fault, this is so far outside their frame of reference they can't make sense of it in a single conversation. Fortunately understanding isn't required, only the acceptance that other people have limits they don't have themselves.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#118

Post by achierius »

gehsty wrote: post #19

If it helps anyone I take antidepressants and have had a positive experience with them. Depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance and no amount of exercise or talking about it will fix it. One of the most frustrating things when your really low is people giving advice like do exercise to feel better - please don’t do this.

> Depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance

And yet many other times, it can be caused or exacerbated by situational and psychological factors, including "being stuck at home all day".

> One of the most frustrating things when your really low is people giving advice like do exercise to feel better - please don’t do this.

Worse, antidepressants actually cause significant harm to many people who take them, often without even improving their depressive symptoms. This is very bad, and I would say significantly worse than giving general advice that might be inapplicable to some people.

There's no one-size-fits-all solution, and some people probably are legitimately just in need of more motivation to go running or biking or whatever else will get them the exercise they need.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#119

Post by resumenext »

HauntingPin wrote: post #5
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

I also question the universality of it. No amount of exercise changed my depression or made life any less miserable. Anti-depressants finally helped me get past the trauma I was unable to properly process otherwise.

I hesitate to ask but what is your gender? I think there may be very gender specific effects in this comparison. I would also be very curious the type and intensity of exercise and whether you had comorbidities that impact ability to train (obesity, low testosterone, etc).

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#120

Post by skywhopper »

yomismoaqui wrote: post #68
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

Glad that works for you, but please know if you are giving advice to individuals, that not everyone can work this way. In fact, for some people, this sort of artificial structure actually makes it harder to get the stuff done, and just makes things worse.
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