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Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

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Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#71

Post by gloxkiqcza »

KellyCriterion wrote: post #47
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

You can also have a "deeply-disciplined routine" and get thrown out of it and hit depression because exactly by that one impact. Source: Myself.

I’m not sure if you need to hear this but in case you do: There’s only one way to get back to it and the sooner you do it, the easier it is. First week is hardest, then the positive feedback loop starts kicking in. Do not to think about it, just get it done.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#72

Post by verteu »

imzadi wrote: post #38

This is only talking about therapy and not medication. The original study is a bit light on details https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... > For the 57 trials (2189 participants) comparing exercise with no treatment or a control intervention, the pooled SMD for depressive symptoms at the end of treatment was −0.67 (95% confidence interval (CI) −0.82 to −0.52; low‐certainty evidence), showing…

It's a standardized mean difference, which I believe can roughly be interpreted as: "treated groups had 0.67 stddev lower depression score than control groups."

That's a pretty substantial improvement - consider someone who's more depressed than 75% of the population becoming completely average. (Because the 75th percentile is about 0.67stddev above the median.)

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#73

Post by burningChrome »

heavyset_go wrote: post #58
HauntingPin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also question the universality of it. No amount of exercise changed my depression or made life any less miserable. Anti-depressants finally helped me get past the trauma I was unable to properly process otherwise.

I'm a non-competitive athlete, and yes exercise can help depression, but no, it will not be sufficient for anything but your mild to average case of it. Exercise is a crucial part of dealing with it, but it is not a panacea.

>> I'm a non-competitive athlete

Honest question, but what do you mean by this?

I've played competitive team sports my whole life and have a very competitive drive. If its not team sports, its rock climbing where I feel like I'm competing against myself or my brain trying to solve a route. If I'm hiking, I'm competing against the clock or how far I can go. If I'm lifting weights, its about how many sets I can do and what weight in order to push myself.

So even in what most people deem "non-competitive" activities I'm still competing against a clock, or my body, or my brain.

I'm just curious what you meant is all.

EDIT: Typical HN. Ask a question and get downvoted. Logging off the day - thanks.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#74

Post by avidiax »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #48
boplicity wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a certain amount of "willpower" that can overcome motivational barriers. This willpower is limited, though. It's very helpful to have clear guidance on where to allocate this very limited resources, especially in situations where people are otherwise struggling. All of which is to say -- these exhortations can play a useful role. :)

Yup, which is why diets fail. People who are fat generally do not have enough available willpower to lose weight.

My suspicion as someone with lifelong weight struggles and having tried GLP-1 medication: overweight people require more willpower to lose or maintain weight relative to those of normal weight.

So the advise or admonishment of the normally weighted that losing weight "just requires willpower" is true but facile.

If we were to medically induce a constant feeling of hunger and insatiability into a person of normal weight, I'm sure they could keep the weight off, but would find that their willpower is highly depleted.

There are medications that cause increased appetite and weight gain (ex: some bipolar depression medications, prednisolone). This effect is so pronounced, that if a doctor sees the patient not gaining weight, they will suspect non-compliance and have to rule it out. Of course, some patients use extreme diet and exercise (willpower) to avoid these effects, but a normal person accustomed to expending a normal amount of willpower to maintain weight will find themselves gaining.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#75

Post by browningstreet »

CrossVR wrote: post #53
LorenPechtel wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, which is why diets fail. People who are fat generally do not have enough available willpower to lose weight.

This has more to do with hunger requiring a tremendous amount of willpower to ignore rather than fat people having less willpower than people of average weight.

If you eat poorly, those foods will not satiate and the "hunger" (it's not the hunger of a body starved of calories) persists. Eat for sustenance and the hunger you may feel will be different.

I also know that if I overeat, I have a strong urge to keep feeding (more chips, more pizza, more chipsahoy). Whereas when I eat a proper meal, I'm fine when the eating of that meal ends.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#76

Post by jjtheblunt »

yomismoaqui wrote: post #68
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

I bet simply having a dog needing walking tips the scales into an exercise routine at some level.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#77

Post by filchermcurr »

taeric wrote: post #63

I would assume that "doing something" is the key here? Successfully doing exercise probably has add on benefits that you can more successfully do other things afterward. But successfully reading a book can help me get out of depression. Successfully cleaning the kitchen. Really, just successfully doing anything is a huge cure against depression.

I'm not sure this is the type of depression being talked about here. It's unfortunate that we have conflated periods of being sad / down with clinical depression. I have no doubt that reading a book or cleaning the kitchen or accomplishing a goal can help with feeling down or general sadness, but clinical depression is a whole separate beast without such easy a fix.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#78

Post by dahart »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #48
boplicity wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a certain amount of "willpower" that can overcome motivational barriers. This willpower is limited, though. It's very helpful to have clear guidance on where to allocate this very limited resources, especially in situations where people are otherwise struggling. All of which is to say -- these exhortations can play a useful role. :)

Yup, which is why diets fail. People who are fat generally do not have enough available willpower to lose weight.

I wouldn’t phrase it that way. Relying on willpower is a recipe for failure. Humans generally don’t have enough willpower, it goes for most things, even when you don’t have strong physiological forces involved. The key to getting a diet to work is in figuring out how to not require willpower, which means thinking about it differently, forming new habits. Stress and social environment also need attention or they will steamroll your goals.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#79

Post by undeveloper »

gloxkiqcza wrote: post #71
KellyCriterion wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also have a "deeply-disciplined routine" and get thrown out of it and hit depression because exactly by that one impact. Source: Myself.

I’m not sure if you need to hear this but in case you do: There’s only one way to get back to it and the sooner you do it, the easier it is. First week is hardest, then the positive feedback loop starts kicking in. Do not to think about it, just get it done.

reread what you replied to

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#80

Post by burningChrome »

refulgentis wrote: post #15
cheald wrote: post #2

This is a finding that keeps coming up, and I've certainly found it true in my life, but there's a significant chicken-and-egg problem in that depression frequently precludes the motivation to exercise, and if you don't already have a deeply-disciplined routine to overcome the lack of motivation, people won't do it. Exhortation to develop those good habits in the good times, I suppose.

This is 100% true, and what I'm about to describe isn't an attempt to falsify it: took me 11 years and 3 cities to figure it out. You don't have to exercise so much as get moving . I'm the best I've been in 37 years, and it's because in August I started forcing myself to just keep walking whenever I went out to have a cigarette. I was in Boston, and would end up ~nowhere and exhausted. Then started doing random stuff…

get moving is the key.

Some of my best friends are personal trainers and they say the same thing. When you tell people just moving essentially gives you what they refer to as "free exercise". The kind that doesn't make people feel like they have to get up off the couch, change their clothes, go to the gym, get on the treadmill, lift their weights, etc.

Just walking around the block. Just walking up a few flights of stairs. Just doing something that doesn't feel like you have to have a huge investment is sometimes the best way to start - then transition into more structured stuff like wight lifting or running or anything else. And you still get the benefits for almost nothing. Walk a few flights of stairs and your legs start to burn, your lungs open up, you increase your blood flow, and you release endorphins. And it didn't cost anything if you can just include it in your day-to-day activities.

Not sure how many times I make extra trips to my basement just to get in a few more stairs. lol

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