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European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

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Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#321

Post by rdm_blackhole »

palata wrote: post #313
noo_u wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, at this point, an easily verifiable fact that software engineering jobs in Europe are en masse poorly paid relative to the equivalent positions in the US, and the majority of the EU companies that actually pay well are actually US based. This causes a lot of outflow of talent. That VC funding in Europe is atrocious is obvious to anyone who has had to go through it, and have fun letting a poor performer go from…

Are you saying that Europe can't compete with the US monopolies because all the good developers move to the US?

Yes that is what OP is saying and OP is correct. If you are young, talented and you have a crazy idea that might just work and if you are given the opportunity then you go to the US every-time.

Why? Because it makes sense. Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US or better yet, start your own company there and then expand in Europe after building it knowing that if you eventually sell it, you get to keep a lot of the sale price.

Talented people don't work for nothing. Motivated and ambitious people don't work for nothing.

If Europe wants to see it's own tech giants emerge, then it's needs to compensate founders and employees well. That's as simple as it is.

Unfortunately it's just not the case at the moment and until that changes, the most ambitious Europeans will continue leaving and building companies on the other side of the Atlantic.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#322

Post by noo_u »

palata wrote: post #313
noo_u wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, at this point, an easily verifiable fact that software engineering jobs in Europe are en masse poorly paid relative to the equivalent positions in the US, and the majority of the EU companies that actually pay well are actually US based. This causes a lot of outflow of talent. That VC funding in Europe is atrocious is obvious to anyone who has had to go through it, and have fun letting a poor performer go from…

Are you saying that Europe can't compete with the US monopolies because all the good developers move to the US?

Did I use the word "all" anywhere in my comment? There are good developers in Europe. What I am saying is that there would have been even more of them had the incentives not been so lackluster. More talent seems to generally result in a greater competitive ability.

Fwiw, I have doubts that currently Europe can compete with the US at the startup level, let alone at the bigco one.

I am not trying to drag Europe down - it worries me that sophisticated complacency, overconfidence based on the achievements of previous generations, and addiction to comfort, will start eroding the very aspects that make it a great place to live at.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#323

Post by radlad »

dizlexic wrote: post #320
mandevil wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No government official spoke up to have Brandon Eich fired, or bullied him or anything like that. His defenestration wasn't driven by government. Brandon Eich said some things, and the community around him judged those things and reacted to it. That's means that we're not talking about free speech any more. You have no right to speak and force other people to listen without social consequence, you do have a right to…

I invite you to google for news articles reporting on his donations prior to his removal from Mozilla. this is my favorite (mainly because they also call out donations to Ron Paul.) https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/02/controver... While no politician commented directly, acting like it was just his peers and not part of national political conversation is silly.

The First Amendment right exists in large part to enable and encourage non-governmental news reporting - to avoid a world in which government officials can dictate "reality" or "truth."

The Guardian is actually a British publication, which is a bit orthogonal from the original discussion of US free speech. It might be more accurate to say that this was part of an international political conversation. This is because Bradon Eich, the leader of an organization which provides products internationally, made public donations to political groups that seek to strip rights from others. He has a first amendment right to do so.

As OP states, the rest of the world has a right (in the US, legally; elsewhere, perhaps morally) to respond to Brandon Eich, and Mozilla. If they believe that his views may influence the organization negatively - either due to bad press or through his other behaviors within the organization - they are also granted free speech to call out this behavior.

What we are seeing now is actual government agencies and officials working hard to remove people from their jobs - both in the public and private sectors - in response to views that don't align with their own.

It's not clear to me what your argument is exactly.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#324

Post by lynx97 »

jansper39 wrote: post #143
lynx97 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU definitely has no concept of "love". It was founded to make trade easier. All the fuzz about humane values and morals has been tacked on more or less recently, to keep up the support for it from the population. It is the literal wolf in sheep's clothing.

Yet because of it's existence, thousands of people have been able to love beyond their countries borders.

Wait, requiring a passport to cross a border did prevent people from forming relationships? I really don't follow. It is not like we were prisoners in our home countries before the EU was invented. And "love" has always been a huge driver of immigration, way before the EU. I even know people who sold marriage so that the buyer could immigrate. So why exactly was the EU a driver for international love?

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#325

Post by lynx97 »

waldarbeiter wrote: post #107
lynx97 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU definitely has no concept of "love". It was founded to make trade easier. All the fuzz about humane values and morals has been tacked on more or less recently, to keep up the support for it from the population. It is the literal wolf in sheep's clothing.

What does "wolf in sheep's clothing" mean for you, concretely, outside of metaphors?

Well, the EU is pretty firmly in conservative hands. Ask a random EU citizen if they know that EPP is secretly leading the EU since its conception? They will likely not realize, because they fall for the piece&love propaganda. Just look at what VDL has done since she overtook the lead? Know where she comes from? Used to be defense minister in germany. Was called "Flintenuschi" back then. And now, magically, we are supposed to invest a shitload of money into military. Thats what I call a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#326

Post by lynx97 »

alphager wrote: post #160
lynx97 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU definitely has no concept of "love". It was founded to make trade easier. All the fuzz about humane values and morals has been tacked on more or less recently, to keep up the support for it from the population. It is the literal wolf in sheep's clothing.

It was founded to make world war 3 impossible /through/ trade. By intertwining the economies of countries that considered each other hereditary enemies (Erbfeinde in German), it sought to make war too costly to consider. Humanitarian values are a core part of what became the EU. That's one of the reasons the EU has had so many political problems with Hungary and Poland in the last decade: their drift to authoritarian…

Given the current geopolitics, it doesn't look like the EU was very effective in eliminating the possibility of WWIII...

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#327

Post by mjashanks »

I feel like now, more than ever, the time is right for the EU's move to open-source to succeed.

Linux Desktop is now simply better than Windows, by far. Open office is good. There are many high-quality, commercially supported open-source products available now, developed by full-time, highly talented engineers.

There's every chance that this will work & breaking up oligopolies is great for everyone, not just Europe.

I wrote about this recently if you're interested: https://budibase.com/blog/updates/eu-digital-sovereignty-and...

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#328

Post by dizlexic »

radlad wrote: post #323
dizlexic wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I invite you to google for news articles reporting on his donations prior to his removal from Mozilla. this is my favorite (mainly because they also call out donations to Ron Paul.) https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/02/controver... While no politician commented directly, acting like it was just his peers and not part of national political conversation is silly.

The First Amendment right exists in large part to enable and encourage non-governmental news reporting - to avoid a world in which government officials can dictate "reality" or "truth." The Guardian is actually a British publication, which is a bit orthogonal from the original discussion of US free speech. It might be more accurate to say that this was part of an international political conversation. This is because…

My argument is that he contributed to a ballot initiative that passed (meaning the majority supported it), but he was still targeted and lost his job because media platforms targeted him.

To quote Andrew Sullivan > "McCarthyism applied by civil actors".

When people with large platforms target you, you're just as screwed regardless of their status as elected officials. To be outraged by one and excuse the other is laughable.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#329

Post by zoeysmithe »

pembrook wrote: post #304
agentultra wrote: post #134

It’d be a shame if MS was compelled by the current US administration to shutdown EU users of CoPilot/365/whatever. Whole agencies within governments lose all of their data and can barely function. A move to alternatives is an imperative! I hope it works for them and stimulates their tech sector.

It'd be a shame if an asteroid struck earth tomorrow as well. But given limited resources, we tend not to devote a ton of resources to every possible tail risk since there's millions of them. Europe should focus on building domestic tech capacity for other reasons (our own future prosperity being one), but being worried about Microsoft Word access over some silly news headlines is not one of them. Every single produc…

The US doesnt recognize many of the bodies you would use as enforcement against aggressive action on EU bought US products. Or for some it does, it gives itself immunity from them like the ICJ.

Also considering the US's unilateral and often violent and aggressive and illegal way of doing things, especially with this administration, I think we're a bit past hypothetical meteor-like hypotheticals.

At this point any usage of destructive leverage the USA has over Europe should be seen as a real possibility, if not a likely one, when it comes to negotiation with or the expansionist desires of the USA.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#330

Post by troyvit »

troyvit wrote: post #259

I read the call for evidence. I have a silly question: Where does one go to supply that evidence?

I found it!

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...

You need an EU account though. I got one and I'm an American so it shouldn't be too tough.

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