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Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

washingtonpost.com

221–230 of 284 posts

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The decision was an extremely bad one and the passage by Holmes was inflammatory rhetoric since the case was clearly never about shouting fire in a theatre, it was about peacefully and reasonably protesting unconstitutional action by the government. It's an interesting theory that the thirteenth amendment prohibits conscription, but it's never been upheld in court.

Which is the single best argument I have ever heard against the supreme court.

Is it? Considering that the 13th amendment was pushed through by the Union in the closing months of the Civil War, which itself was fought by conscripts, it's hard to justify an interpretation that outlaws conscription.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. They won't give up without a fight. The same Neocons that make a big show of decrying Islam to their base also chum around with Saudi Arabia, sucking up the royals. >Arabs w…

> Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long…

> I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world.

Math is timeless unless it's mistaken.

...there’s an alternative math metaphor we might use: calculus. The calculus metaphor asks whether and how we can figure out exactly what’s going to happen. Take NASA and the Apollo missions, for instance. You have to figure out where the moon is going to be, exactly. You have to plan whether a rocket has enough fuel to reach it. And so on. The point is that no one would want to ride in a statistically, probabilistically-informed spaceship.

http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/20400301508/cs183class1

The origins of calculus can be traced to ancient times. Moon rockets. Let that sink in.

Elon Musk and anyone else who pushes that envelope must stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before him, including Arabic mathematicians (indirectly).

What about mathematics that are thousands of years old, i.e. geometry from the ancient Greeks? Buildings with architecture based on the golden ratio[1] are aesthetically very pleasing, e.g. Georgian architecture[2]. Far nicer and better proportioned than most of the shit that's hastily thrown up all over the world today.

Every time you fire up your computer, you're taking advantage of boolean algebra[3], first laid down in the 1850s by George Boole, which is critical to modern computer science.

Mathematical contributions from hundreds of years ago has an incredible amount of relevance to the modern world, in countless different ways.

I wish I knew more about the history of mathematics to counter you more forcefully.

I would also urge you to read this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Civilization-Killer-Apps-Western-Pow...

It shows how that in the 15th century, Europe was a shithole backwater, plagued by diseases and wars, and other civilisations like the Chinese and Arabic ones were far more advanced. By various accidents of history, the western world dominated the rest over the next 500 years. Some would argue that the wests' power is currently on the wane, and China is rising again.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_architecture

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#223

99.99% of disgusting hateful speech is just that: disgusting hateful speech. The other .01% is the only hope we have as a species of honestly addressing our situation and problems and adapting and moving forward. The mob cannot tell the difference between these two groups. In fact, unless you are from the future looking back, nobody can. People who change society for the better through their speech are almost univers…

Publicly, that is. In a private forum like Hacker News, exclusion of disgusting hateful speech is legitimate and even necessary for the survival of the community - or people would leave because the "trolls" have taken over.

I think the big difference between private and public is that the public authority uses force against the property of others to exclude speech, supposedly deemed as disgusting to a particular group, but you have to recognize as history shows that it will be abused to limit legitimate political speech.

Private forums like Hacker News in no way infringe on the rights of others, by using their own property (web site) in a way they deem fit.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Means, you will support war. My suggestion - pacify both.

Everyone should chill out and have a beer by the beach. Unless you are in the US, where that's illegal.

This varies considerably. I can assure you as a USian that I regularly chill out and have a beer by the beach. :)

Though we do also have "family friendly" beaches where you can only have alcohol in areas around the beach, not on the beach itself.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publicly, that is. In a private forum like Hacker News, exclusion of disgusting hateful speech is legitimate and even necessary for the survival of the community - or people would leave because the "trolls" have taken over.

I agree that HN can operate how it wishes. I'm not sure that barring disgusting speech is "necessary," if only because "necessary" can be such a loaded word. reddit, for example, seems to have a principle of free speech, where there only a very specific things you are not allowed to say board-wide. So there is a fair amount of disgusting speech there. It seems to work for them -- although I have been slowly disengagi…

Don't some individual subreddits moderate fairly heavily? And the upvoting/downvoting also has the effect of hiding disliked speech.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#226
The thing is, violence is not the correct response to hateful or derogatory speech. It's much more effective to use positive actions to prove the speech wrong; people don't respond well to losing verbal arguments, but no one can argue with results from positive actions.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe certainly does have a problem with Muslim immigration. We've been tolerating and understanding the fuck out of them too, but that doesn't seem to have helped at all. They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. There are talented people everywhere, but you won't find all that many Western people who killed their own daughters for showing too much skin.

I moved to Europe somewhat recently, and I haven't seen any tolerance or understanding: people are incredibly racist towards anyone with non-white skin, and it's socially acceptable to make snide comments about race in polite society. The U.S. (where I come from) is not exactly a pinnacle of race relations, but I was shocked by how much worse it is in Europe. There was a professor in my department of Bangladeshi heri…

I moved to Europe somewhat recently, and I haven't seen any tolerance or understanding: people are incredibly racist towards anyone with non-white skin, and it's socially acceptable to make snide comments about race in polite society.

Oh? At least in Finland, the situation is actually the exact opposite of that. As far as I know, the same applies all over Scandinavia and Central Europe.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#228
This article displays a rather poor understanding of free speech.

First, it sets up a false dichotomy between an idealized "free speech" past and a present where free speech is in danger. Where's the evidence for this? The US has always had an uneasy relationship with "free speech." I don't believe that the First Amendment was ever interpreted as liberally as this author seems to think.

Any article talking about free speech's decline in the US should refer to the two key Supreme Court cases: Schenck v. United States and Brandenburg v. Ohio. Seriously, it takes like less than 5 minutes to look these up on wikipedia and you can already see that the First Amendment has always been interpreted pretty conservatively. Facts are our friends, I wish this author would have provided some citations and historical context.

As for countries other than the US? Are you kidding me? Europe has always had restrictions even on political speech. There's no limiting of free speech that is new here. Sure the author cites some "new" laws but these laws reflect the spirit of the old laws. No news here people.

Now I'll address the author's subcategories where he believe free speech is being eroded:

Blasphemy: This is the only area in the article where the author has a bit of a point. The presence of relatively large populations willing to riot over perceived insults to their religion (i.e. Muslims) is sort of new in Western Europe and leaders are figuring out how to deal with it. However, I don't see anybody rushing out to ban the Satanic Verses. Most leaders are concerned about people doing silly things like dressing up as zombie Muhammed in public. A key criterion here is the possibility of inciting public violence. Rarely do works of literary or artistic merit have this effect, so restrictions are mostly directed towards people doing insulting things in public. Think of going into a bar and insulting the biggest, dumbest looking guy there. Yes, you should have the right to do that, but ask any prosecutor how much sympathy a judge is going to have for your case. There's nothing new here. Personally, I wish our laws allowed more expressions of insulting speech. I actually agree with the author on that point - but the author undermines his case by pretending that we're somehow backsliding. We're not, this has always been the standard.

BTW, I write this as an atheist who plenty of Muslims would love to see butchered. However, we need to remember that much of the censorship going on around this issue is self-censorship. The state censorship he cites is really nothing new - in France it's just an extension of how they deal with Nazis and others. I disagree with French laws on this, but again, there's nothing new here. The author is being alarmist.

Hate crimes The reason for hate crime laws is that a hate crime is more than just a crime between two people. It's something that has the potential to incite group versus group violence. There's a qualitative difference in an act that's meant to intimidate a a single individual and one meant to intimidate a specific group. When acts directed specifically at a group are committed everyone in that group feels a bit of the effect of the act, hence the punishment should be greater. Additionally, there are some hate criminals who don't mind getting punished just for committing an act against an individual because their real goal is intimidating an entire group.

Speech is discriminatory Ummm, discrimination on the basis of suspect and quasi-suspect categories has been illegal in many circumstances for some time now. Putting up a sign that says "Coloreds not welcome" at your establishment is pretty much illegal and has been even though it's a restriction on "speech." This is based on the fact that you're operating a public establishment and therefore derive gains from being part of the broader society. With those gains come responsibilities. If you and your buddies don't want to hang around blacks when you BBQ in your backyard you're still free to discriminate because you're not running a public establishment in that context. The example cited in the article comes from a comedy club, a public establishment. Again, nothing new here.

Speech is Deceitful If you lie and get a benefit from it, then yes, you should be prosecuted. I don't know why the author views this as a problem. The example he cites from France is not an outlier in French history - it's an extension of France's rather stringent anti-hate laws. Laws I disagree with just like the author does, but again, there's nothing new here.

One of the reasons I really don't like this article is because I kind of agree with the author around loosening free speech standards, but he just does an awful and alarmist job of conveying his point. He is bound to turn off anyone who has any grasp of the history and nuance around the subject. I feel like a cause I support has been set back by this author's very poor argumentation skills.

This article reminds us that opinion column writers were the original trolls long before the Internet ever existed.

tl:dr: The author does not provide any convincing evidence that the "West is limiting Free Speech" in any new way.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#229
post #107

What concerns me especially in Britain is the amount of times the police are getting involved in what appear to be free speech cases. In Britain 2 police officers were killed. The same day a guy wrote on his t-shirt something to the effect of "kill pigs for fun hahahaah." This is a stupid thing to do. I would have thought the police might confiscate his t-shirt. Nope, that wouldn't have been sufficient. He got 4 mont…

The case of t-shirt guy (Barry Thew) is much worse than "4 months for wearing an offensive t-shirt". Turns out he has a history. a) He's a psychiatric patient, on anti-psychotic meds with a history of compulsory in-patient detention, b) His son died in police custody 3 years ago. He also has a series of criminal convictions, most recently for cultivating cannabis, but I'd like to note that there's a really strong ass…

> His son died in police custody 3 years ago

I keep reading this, but I haven't yet seen a better citation than "my mates in Manchester say it's true".

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#230

99.99% of disgusting hateful speech is just that: disgusting hateful speech. The other .01% is the only hope we have as a species of honestly addressing our situation and problems and adapting and moving forward. The mob cannot tell the difference between these two groups. In fact, unless you are from the future looking back, nobody can. People who change society for the better through their speech are almost univers…

> thousands of unpopular folks yelling in the wilderness about how we are stupid, wrong, immoral and how we should improve ourselves

Were you by any chance referring to the story of John the Baptist?

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