Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#171

Post by Volpe » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:24 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #55

mcantelon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. They won't give up without a fight. The same Neocons that make a big show of decrying Islam to their base also chum around with Saudi Arabia, sucking up the royals. >Arabs w…

> Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long…

I'm amazed at the hubris shown towards a civilisation that has existed far longer than your own.

Please reflect more on this. Your "solution" to this problem is just to oversimplify everything and solve these simple problems. A clear flag, that you lack the education to actually contribute something meaningful to the discussion.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#172

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:25 PM UTC

randomchars wrote: post #165

w1ntermute wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long…

> I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist. No math = No modern world. Got it?

No, you're the one that still doesn't get it. Who invented algebra 1000 years ago is entirely irrelevant to modern geopolitics.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#173

Post by mercurial » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:27 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #115

justsee wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But failing to undertake a proper root cause analysis is harmful to your stated aims. You appear to believe that a resurgent radical Islam is primarily due to the rise of wealthy Arab states, and yet these states are aligned to the West, armed by the West, and also suppress the same radical elements you wish to neutralize domestically. A proper root cause analysis would reveal that violent military intervention coupl…

>A proper root cause analysis would reveal that violent military intervention coupled with Western political soundbites (which have a modern crusades theme to them) are the real factors responsible for radicalizing elements of Middle Eastern society. Oh please. A proper root cause analysis is different from blaming everything on the West. It would have to include the idea that the current cultural clash is with an ex…

> Oh please. A proper root cause analysis is different from blaming everything on the West. It would have to include the idea that the current cultural clash is with an extremely violent religion as can be shown by its teachings.

Christianity can be an extremely violent religion, as shown by its history, from the Crusades to the Thirty Years war. Not to mention the various non-religious genocides committed for the most part by "good christians". Most religions have enough internal contradiction that widely different interpretations arise. You have a world of difference between Salafists and Sufis, for instance.

Denying that at least a century of Western interference in the Middle East does not play a very significant role in this "culture war" is naive. Not to deny very different cultural standards between the West and the Middle East, but it's certainly not black and white.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#174

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:27 PM UTC

marshallp wrote: post #116

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

You would like to limit immigration. What would companies like google like look after that? Would you advocate sending the head of youtube back to Iran? What about much of Detroit or New York? You're conflating some poverty-stricken residents of impoverished parts of the world riled up by political rhetoric with a credible enemy (like a cold war style superpower). You're arguments make as much sense as labeling all w…

> You would like to limit immigration. What would companies like google like look after that? Would you advocate sending the head of youtube back to Iran? What about much of Detroit or New York?

I'm not talking about educated people, and like I said above, this issue is not particularly applicable to America, it's more relevant to Europe. In Europe, there is a serious issue with Muslim immigrants not integrating into mainstream society, and this is because many European nations accepted large numbers of Muslim immigrants in an indiscriminate fashion.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#175

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:30 PM UTC

dmorgan wrote: post #132

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

> This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. Put this way, it's even more stupid. It's as if people go about "hating the west" for no reason (or because their "religion tells them so", which is a Glenn Beck level argument). A thing called…

> A thing called colonialism did exist....

All that is true, but it doesn't change what America needs to do now to ensure it remains in control in the most efficient manner. Moreover, with domestic and renewable sources of energy, we wouldn't need to get involved in the Middle East, so they would benefit too.

> The west managed to turn them to "a bunch of desert nomads with no real power" precisely when it wanted to get ahold of cheap labour and later the crude oil.

Great civilizations rise and fill. Regardless of how they got there, that's where they'll be when the US leaves. My point is that their ability to attack the US will be neutralized the minute their cash flow stops.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#176

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:33 PM UTC

justsee wrote: post #91

w1ntermute wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not looking at this from an impartial point of view, I'm looking at this as an American citizen who greatly enjoys the benefits of having been born in a developed nation with global hegemony. I have no illusions about the various immoral and unethical acts committed by the US government over the last 50-75 (and probably more) years in various 3rd world countries in the name of American interests, nor do I think t…

But failing to undertake a proper root cause analysis is harmful to your stated aims. You appear to believe that a resurgent radical Islam is primarily due to the rise of wealthy Arab states, and yet these states are aligned to the West, armed by the West, and also suppress the same radical elements you wish to neutralize domestically. A proper root cause analysis would reveal that violent military intervention coupl…

You go on and on about Western intervention in the Middle East. My solution would eliminate Western intervention in the Middle East. Once we don't need crude oil, why would we even bother going there? There would be nothing of value. Wouldn't the Arabs be happy with that too?

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#177

Post by randomchars » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:34 PM UTC

ominds wrote: post #141

Many sites speak against Islam and its prophet, many of them speak against the Koran and its teachings. No demonstrations have gone all out against them. They hold a POV that is not acceptable to Muslims, but that's fine. Many of them even attempt to do research about the topic they talk about to prove their POVs. The question is, would you consider someone who creates a film portraying Jesus or Mohammad as a child m…

I would.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#178

Post by mlvljr » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:34 PM UTC

cousin_it wrote: post #103

javajosh wrote: post #9

Why can't the article just come out and say what it means? Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. The simple lesson here is that if you want to stop non-believers from doing blasphemy, violent reprisals work . And really, self-censorship is a practical stance, if not a principled one.…

> what's next? threatening farmers who sell pork? No, threatening shop owners who sell alcohol. It's already happening in some regions of Russia that have large Muslim populations, like Dagestan. Typically they'd send you a "flash card" with photos of your wife and kids. Then you're on the hook to pay money to Muslim militants, or your family suffers. Going to the authorities won't work, since many government officia…

These are future freedom fighters (already funded by the saudits, btw), you just don't get it!

Чтоб им...

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#179

Post by Volpe » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:35 PM UTC

tlear wrote: post #161

jlgreco wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is fair to say that both Islam and Christianity were spread with more or less the same mix of techniques. The two religions have a great deal in common. However that should not be interpreted as praise of Islam. In fact, I think that comparison is extraordinary damming .

Not really, big coup for Christianity was conversion of the Roman empire and that was most definitely peaceful. Contrast that with how Middle east, and North Africa became Muslim

erm.. but the 'spread' of the roman empire, was not peaceful. So you are really arguing the semantics of the order in which things were done.

Large group takes over world, then spreads religion. vs Large group spreads religion, and takes over world.

Yeah, REAL moral high ground there.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#180

Post by Volpe » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 1:37 PM UTC

muuh-gnu wrote: post #104

linuxhansl wrote: post #21

"Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get. Religious criticism seems to unearth the general insecurity that people have about their religion (whatever is might be). If people would be sufficiently secure about their religious views any criticism would just be ignored and people would go on about their business. (Well, the truth is that people are angry to begin with, and religion is just a nice excuse to vent t…

> "Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get. Blashphemy is just another word for criticism and ridicule. You cannot uphold a dictatorship of unsubstantiated claims if everybody is allowed to openly ask questions. This pattern is always the same in every authoritarian structure and is in no way specific to religion, religion only has a special word for it. Blasphemy is what the kid in "The Emperor's New Clothes"…

While I agree with your post. Blasphemy is also there to encourage respect of ideas you don't necessarily agree with/believe. It's an overly blunt tool, but I think there is a part that is useful.