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Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

washingtonpost.com

101–110 of 284 posts

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#101
The examples in the piece seem to me to be so colored so as to confuse the whole issue. Actual limiting of rights occurs due to a power structure. The right to offend an unpopular minority or foreign group is usually easy to exercise and it doesn't take much guts to defend it. Rights are usually curtailed by the powers that be.

The article seems to imply that a monolithic "Western World" has been a fountain head of free expression until the problematic Muslims and a few left-liberals came along. So Jews in the last few centuries, or blacks during Jim Crow had wonderful free expression rights that an un-sullied European civilization had always cherished?

Fast forwarding to this time, quite a few people are in jail within the Western world for espousing extremely un-popular political views.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#102

"Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get. Religious criticism seems to unearth the general insecurity that people have about their religion (whatever is might be). If people would be sufficiently secure about their religious views any criticism would just be ignored and people would go on about their business. (Well, the truth is that people are angry to begin with, and religion is just a nice excuse to vent t…

The competition between religions for converts is competition among memes. Look at the number of bizarre little cults and would-be prophets among humans today; multiply that by 6,000 years or so of recorded history, and it's no wonder some of them have turned out to be world-shapingly successful.

The exact formula for a successful religion is different for different religions, places and times. But it doesn't stretch the imagination to think that violent suppression of expressions of disbelief, doubt, or disrespect might be part of a formula that allows a religion to spread and maintain power.

In other words, maybe religions that don't have prohibitions against blasphemy are quickly torn apart by heretics and skeptics -- or at least limited in size and power.

This isn't a justification of blasphemy prohibitions; it's merely an explanation of why a successful religion (in terms of number of believers) might have such a rule: because the rule is what causes the success.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#103
post #9

Why can't the article just come out and say what it means? Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. The simple lesson here is that if you want to stop non-believers from doing blasphemy, violent reprisals work . And really, self-censorship is a practical stance, if not a principled one.…

> what's next? threatening farmers who sell pork?

No, threatening shop owners who sell alcohol. It's already happening in some regions of Russia that have large Muslim populations, like Dagestan.

Typically they'd send you a "flash card" with photos of your wife and kids. Then you're on the hook to pay money to Muslim militants, or your family suffers. Going to the authorities won't work, since many government officials are on the same hook.

Here's an article about these "flash cards" on a militant website: http://guraba.info/2011-02-27-17-49-46/28-facty/1344-2012-06... It's in Russian, you'll need a translator.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#104

"Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get. Religious criticism seems to unearth the general insecurity that people have about their religion (whatever is might be). If people would be sufficiently secure about their religious views any criticism would just be ignored and people would go on about their business. (Well, the truth is that people are angry to begin with, and religion is just a nice excuse to vent t…

> "Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get.

Blashphemy is just another word for criticism and ridicule. You cannot uphold a dictatorship of unsubstantiated claims if everybody is allowed to openly ask questions. This pattern is always the same in every authoritarian structure and is in no way specific to religion, religion only has a special word for it. Blasphemy is what the kid in "The Emperor's New Clothes" did at the end of the tale: publicly questioning authority, which led to authority breaking down.

> What the heck is a "hate crime"?

For example public calls for Jews to be gassed.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#105
There is another aspect to this. A ban on blasphemy, in a wide sense of the world is very natural to us. We are used to living under these restrictions. They are imposed by religion, law & taboo/culture almost everywhere including the west.

The blatant simple versions are religious laws often absorbed into law about denying the truth of a religion, worshiping other gods, etc. There are often also similar restrictions on criticism/denial of monarchs. When these get stronger and more elaborate, we tend to call these "State Religions" (eg north korea) hinting at how closely we associate religions with blasphemy/heresy laws.

A more modern "light" varient has cultural pressures at the core. It is considered bad form almost everywhere to openly criticize someone's "beliefs." Beliefs must be mutually respected. They cannot be held against someone. They are treated as a part of one's ethnicity. As far as I can tell this has two sources. The original religious law one (Dawkins has fascinating memetic explanation for this) and a sort of cultural compromise reached enough times following religious wars that it has become deeply ingrained in cultures.

We are predisposed to respecting blasphemy and heresy laws.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#106
post #10

What I find chilling is in the age of the internet the comment sections on news sites are heavily censored (e.g. CBC). Which seems to allow a strange mix of viewpoints but what you don't see is what worries me. As for insulting religions it's funny that most times it's religion against religion more than non-religious again religious.

The BBC is heavily censoring comments in the news. Victims of UK killers in Afghanistan have no voice there.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#107
What concerns me especially in Britain is the amount of times the police are getting involved in what appear to be free speech cases.

In Britain 2 police officers were killed. The same day a guy wrote on his t-shirt something to the effect of "kill pigs for fun hahahaah." This is a stupid thing to do. I would have thought the police might confiscate his t-shirt. Nope, that wouldn't have been sufficient. He got 4 months in prison.

After any major crime you hear that someone has been arrested because they have set up a fan page or wrote some stupid comments online praising the person who did it. I would have thought Facebook moderation would be sufficient.

Most recently.. a girl went missing. Some muppet on Facebook wrote how he "woke up" next to her. Not all of his comments were posted but these appear to be on his Facebook wall. He wasn't trolling the family or abusing memorial pages. He is now spending 3 months in prison...

You then have the frustrated traveler who said he would blow an air port "sky high". He was arrested, found guilty and fined. It took a year or two to finally win an appeal.

I am not defending these people. They have done stupid things. Some should be warned by police. However, there appears to be a crackdown going on quietly if you cause even the slightest offense. As a citizen of a western country this worries my greatly.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#108
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The violence is there for other reasons. Religion is an outlet. I agree it's not a simple matter. Neither is just saying they are violent, and that is the end of the story. That is a bit simple, don't you think? Should I assume that you're "a devout Muslim of one of the more violent sects"?

>The violence is there for other reasons. Religion is an outlet. That's what I'm talking about. Why do you assume this? Why do you assume people who have been beheading each other for blasphemy going on 1500 years have suddenly decided God can take care of himself and it's all really an excuse? >Should I assume that you're "a devout Muslim of one of the more violent sects"? Why would you assume that too? What differe…

Perhaps because scholarly research into the last five or so decades of conflicts has shown that politics is the main cause of violence, and that groups from the European fascists, anarchists to todays militants have been using similar technicques of warfare, organisation, propaganda, and follow conflicts follow similar trajectories.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#109
I think it is not real limitation per se. OK, there are real limitations, like the BBC censorship of comments on their website (they call it moderation). But mostly it is orwellian double-thinking occupying the mind of the average Westerner. Examples? Even after this photo - http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/00065/mhli/0065... a rare Westerner will allow himself to think there is no rover on Mars. It is self-censorship at almost pre-conscious level what horrifies me in the Western world.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#110
post #76

this would be true if "western world" == USA. But it isn't. It's a subset of it, and certainly not true for all the western countries.

You mean Sweden has free speech? Or Norway? I doubt you can have free speech even in Liechtenstein. You can only express yourself "freely" until you are not touching the real chaps with real interests. Look at Assange's story.
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