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Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

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Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#91
post #6

How money works? Well look into fractional reserve banking and do the math. If you’re a bank, you can just loan out 10-100 times what you have in assets and ask say 5% interest. Then 5*10 to 5*100 is your annual interest to the bank. That’s why the Bible and Quran are against usury.

> That’s why the Bible and Quran are against usury. Now let's biblical exegesis to define what is legitimate interest and usury. The "good" (or "bad"?) thing about these holy scriptures is that they can be interpreted quite freely to fit a personal or institutional agenda.

That's why you have the Pope or the Supreme Court to tell you what the holy scriptures mean.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently discovered narrow banking ( https://www.narrowbanking.org/ ) which basically states the idea of narrow banking which can only make it so that the bank doesn't have the issues with fractional reserve banking if you are worried about it Stablecoins feel the most practical way I suppose for narrow banking although there is this UK bank and this Danish bank as well which are the two examples of narrow banking.…

> here already are some gold pegged stablecoins Something backed by a volatile asset isn't, by definition , a stablecoin, though.

Stable coins are stable relative to their backing asset, not necessarily US dollars or any other currency.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#93
post #78
post #6

How money works? Well look into fractional reserve banking and do the math. If you’re a bank, you can just loan out 10-100 times what you have in assets and ask say 5% interest. Then 5*10 to 5*100 is your annual interest to the bank. That’s why the Bible and Quran are against usury.

This is a common misconception, thinking that fractional reserve banking is the way in which banks lend. In actuality it's a limitation to how banks lend. Without fractional reserve rules the banks could lend their money infinitely. I like Richard Wagner's theories/research on the subject, as in he actually asked for a loan and went through the books of the bank to verify where the money came from, it came from nowhe…

> Without fractional reserve rules the banks could lend their money infinitely.

What's that supposed to mean?

> I like Richard Wagner's theories/research on the subject, as in he actually asked for a loan and went through the books of the bank to verify where the money came from, it came from nowhere, they just credited their account and that's it.

That's a bit silly. Yes, when you get a loan and just let the money sit in your account, the bank can create the loan/deposit pair out of thin air (modulo legal requirements).

The constraint for the bank comes when you start spending that money. Most people take loans to spend the money, eg a company might invest in some new machinery or you might buy a house. The Mr Wagner in your story stopped his investigation too early.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the really stupid stuff written is written in good faith. It's not an excuse. There are many good books written about the financial system, accounting, etc. Rather than writing just another (incorrect) blog post, why not point to the good sources of information?

I didn't say it was an excuse. There is value in articles that correctly synthesize fundamental concepts in ways that bring in new learners who are curious and open to learning. There are things the author gets right, even if they are a bit facile.

You might be right. It's also possible you are wrong though. Some things have a lot of moving pieces and if one piece is off the entire thing is wrong - so you have to commit to getting a grounding that is quite thorough to have any understanding at all. I'd argue accounting is one such subject, finance is one, the legal system is one, software engineering is debatable, math isn't one.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#95
post #24
post #6

How money works? Well look into fractional reserve banking and do the math. If you’re a bank, you can just loan out 10-100 times what you have in assets and ask say 5% interest. Then 5*10 to 5*100 is your annual interest to the bank. That’s why the Bible and Quran are against usury.

> That’s why the Bible and Quran are against usury. That's why Christian and Muslim (to a lesser extent since they exploited loopholes) nations relied on Jewish financiers. It does not make sense for the exchange of good and services among one another to be held back because someone deciding to sit on a pile of tokens.

> It does not make sense for the exchange of good and services among one another to be held back because someone deciding to sit on a pile of tokens.

You are making it a bit too easy on yourself: these days we can create an arbitrary number of 'tokens', ie fiat money. The amount we create is limited by the amount of inflation we want to tolerate. If someone just sits on their tokens, they don't contribute to inflation, so we can print more. (But take them out of circulation, if the hoarders decide to spend.)

Just to be clear: I agree with what you are arguing for! But your argument is a bit too simple to work in modern times: legalising interest payments is still a good idea, even when we can create an arbitrary number of tokens. But the reasoning is a bit more complicated.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#96
post #8
post #6

How money works? Well look into fractional reserve banking and do the math. If you’re a bank, you can just loan out 10-100 times what you have in assets and ask say 5% interest. Then 5*10 to 5*100 is your annual interest to the bank. That’s why the Bible and Quran are against usury.

This is not correct. For starters, loans are assets. Banks start with some capital, borrow in the form of deposits, and lend in the form of bonds, mortgages etc. The regulatory capital ratio determines how much capital they must hold to support the assets.

> The regulatory capital ratio determines how much capital they must hold to support the assets.

That's one of the factors. But even in jurisdictions without regulations on capital ratio, banks tend to hold capital cushions.

The Scottish 'free banking' era in the 18th and 19th century is instructive here. (Canada had a similar arrangement.) In Scotland during that time banks regularly had about 2/3 deposits and 1/3 capital to finance their balance sheet, despite no fixed regulatory obligations on capital ratios.

Interestingly they barely held any reserves at all, perhaps 2% or less of assets.

These banks were extraordinarily solid and stable. And the arrangement contributed to Scotland's rapid catching up to England during their Industrial Revolutions.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#97
post #66

This is bad, don't read it. When you borrow $100 you do not create a liability which includes the interest to be paid. People who don't understand the very basics of finance and accounting shouldn't write about finance and accounting.

You are fixating on one tiny point which isn't really that important within OP's ... errm "opus". Why not critique the entire work? Anyway: I borrow 100 from someone. I am now in debt and they are in credit - to balance, both are 100. However, they require a return on investment - usury: 10 for 100 (or a 10% margin - call it what you like). When I take out my loan, I am in debt for 110 and they are in credit for 100…

What gets on my tits more is people who are pretty bright in one field (hacking) thinking that entitles them to just brute force their way through reasoning about some other field (finance) that in their arrogance they think is simpler.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> here already are some gold pegged stablecoins Something backed by a volatile asset isn't, by definition , a stablecoin, though.

On a long timescale gold is way more stable than the dollar. Dollar is nonvolatile on a long timescale in the sense the expected returns are negative and it does it reliably at usually anywhere from a return around negative 2-10%. But in terms of price stability gold would be far far far far more stable on anything but the most short-sighted of timescales.

I guess. But you can fix the slow drain of inflation by using long-term treasury bonds instead of actual cash. That's pretty much a dollar and doesn't do badly.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#99
post #6

How money works? Well look into fractional reserve banking and do the math. If you’re a bank, you can just loan out 10-100 times what you have in assets and ask say 5% interest. Then 5*10 to 5*100 is your annual interest to the bank. That’s why the Bible and Quran are against usury.

I recently discovered narrow banking ( https://www.narrowbanking.org/ ) which basically states the idea of narrow banking which can only make it so that the bank doesn't have the issues with fractional reserve banking if you are worried about it Stablecoins feel the most practical way I suppose for narrow banking although there is this UK bank and this Danish bank as well which are the two examples of narrow banking.…

You are mixing up a lot of different ideas and concepts.

Historically, the combination of fractional reserve banking and the classic gold standard was very successful. Just because your bank uses grams of gold as the unit of accounting (or something that's effectively equivalent to grams of gold), doesn't mean they need to have that much of gold in their vaults. Similar to how today a bank will give you dollar bills when you ask for them, but that doesn't mean they need to have their vaults stuffed full of dollar bills. They just need enough solid assets to sell for dollars, so they can give you dollars when you want to withdraw. (Having some gold or dollars on hand is just a convenience, so you don't have to wait for the bank to liquidate assets.)

About narrow banking: there's at least two different definitions of the idea. What your website describes might be called 100% reserve banking. The website is a bit silly: you can already get 100% reserve banking today, if you want it.

The website is also extremely misleading and dishonest about fractional reserve banking. You can eg just follow their own link to the Bank of Amsterdam and read up on it.

The second definition of 'narrow banking' can be seen at eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrow_banking

> Narrow banking is a proposed banking system that would restrict commercial banks to hold only safe and liquid assets, like government bonds, against customer deposits, while prohibiting traditional lending activities. Under this model, banks would function as custodians and payment processors, separate from the lending function performed by other financial intermediaries.

This is like a normal fractional reserve bank, but the only asset they invest in is government bonds. This can still go wrong, if you are not careful: Silicon Valley Bank invested mainly in government bonds, but had a maturity mismatch. Their long term government bonds lost in value (because market interest rates went up), so they went bankrupt. Alas, they still got bailed out.

You can approximate this kind of narrow bank for yourself, by just putting your money either in government bonds directly, or into a money market fund that only invests in government bonds.

> [...] I feel like debating that even America itself would benefit from if less foreign nations held US treasury bonds.

In what sense would America benefit? On an inflation adjusted basis, foreigners often get a negative real interest payment, ie they lose money, for the privilege of lending to the US. That seems like an extremely good deal for America.

> There already are some gold pegged stablecoins and theoretically with things like revolut or some instant way to sell crypto without too much hassle/losses and transfering it easily, its rather possible to do such.

Wise offers to keep your money in a fund and they transparently sell your fund shares, when you are buying a coffee with your card. They transparently buy fund shares, when money comes into your account.

See https://wise.com/help/articles/3luodUQFD9YWzNc8PvIfVK/holdin... and https://wise.com/sg/interest/ and https://wise.com/help/articles/74dYRhMCItIf2IBJLTpFQs/how-do...

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Addendum narrow banking in the sense of only holding government bonds:

I think that should be legal for banks to do, and in fact it's a good argument in favour of eliminating deposit insurance. At least the (explicitly or implicitly) government backed deposit insurance that you have eg in the US. It creates a moral hazard where the incentives for monitoring risks are all but dulled.

People who still want the equivalent of deposit insurance should just put their money into a bank that only invests in short term government bonds: after all, a government backed deposit insurance can't really be safer than these short term government bonds anyway.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#100
post #87

> but reading indictments to learn from others' mistakes. Oh oh. > It's about knowing where to buy estradiol valerate on the internet and how to compound injections Oh no. This is 5 paragraphs in, and I already red-flagged out of this, not just because of the time it would take to read this, but because I don't want to go crazy reading this stuff. In case it isn't clear, it's not healthy to read indictments thinking…

"Hacking the law" is how we end up with "sovereign citizen"/"freeman on the land" style nonsense.
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