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Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

andrew.grahamyooll.com

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Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#101

Post by Dave_Rosenthal »

crazygringo wrote: post #63

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your level. The problem is, you're not getting paid what you deserve for that . If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level . Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the proc…

As a boss-man myself, I’ve seen this “don’t let them take advantage of you” sentiment expressed in many discussions about comp and promotions, but I can’t really say I understand it. Am I just out of touch?

As I read it, the article is simply trying to help people understand what kind of work is valuable to a company and therefore what they should focus on to make themselves valuable. I presume that making yourself valuable pays dividends, including promotions! Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best because “you’re not getting paid … for that” just feels so cynical and divorced from how I’ve seen successful people grow and make big bucks in tech.

(And this is all a bit separate, of course, than the debate about whether staying at a company or job hopping is better for career trajectory.)

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#102

Post by _ea1k »

These posts fascinate me, as I must admit that I never really realized there were so many people focused almost exclusively on promotion.

Is it really that common, or do these posts just bring out those types of comments?

TBH, in this field, it seems like other problems are often more pressing:

    - I've been a developer in XX language for NN years. How do I get my next job when the company is now hiring YY developers instead?
    - There are lots of Level II jobs for YY, but I'm at level IV. Will eligibility rules even allow this transition?
    - There are some Level V positions for YY, but my level IV in XX doesn't really qualify me in a way that would pass a tech screen.
The concerns in these types of posts are just so... different.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#103

Post by makeitdouble »

GMoromisato wrote: post #33

In my view, the meta-advice is to understand the goals and constraints of your boss (and their boss), and work towards those goals (while adhering to the constraints). With that perspective, we can derive some rules of thumb: 1. Promotions are not a reward for past performance. Instead, they are a bet that you will contribute more towards those goals with a promotion than without one. 2. As the OP says, if you are de…

Smaller details for your bigger picture:

> 1. Promotions are not a reward for past performance. Instead, they are a bet that you will contribute more towards those goals with a promotion than without one.

It's both.

You reasonably can't keep someone in the same position for 5 years when their market value has long gone past that point and they're expecting more. Even if you're not sure they won't be Peter principled out in the better paying position.

The better way if to have an internal pay scale that allows for more specialization without more responsibility, but that's IMHO rare and requires managers that can handle that.

> demonstrating performance at your boss's level

To note, it often results in advices close to "do X job for a while and we'll let you have it", which looks like a no risk move for the company but is not without downsides. I've seen people being half managers for a full year before becoming one, and boy does it kill morale.

It signals to employees they'll be literally working about their pay grade "for free" for an undefined amount of time, and it's an even worse proposition when they're effectively doing two jobs at the same time (they're still expected to excel in their current position while proving they can do the other position as well)

It's a more delicate balance than it might look at first.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#104

Post by michaelt »

rivetfasten wrote: post #87
mywittyname wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're at a larger company, then you'll probably have to line up another to get promoted. Having one foot out the door is often the ammo that managers need to get HR and leadership to approve a promotion. Of course, we've been told to never accept a counter offer at your job.

> Of course, we've been told to never accept a counter offer at your job. Do you have a example article? I haven't encountered the advice, but I'm curious if the reasoning matches my guess.

You can find a bunch of articles by googling "never accept counter-offer" but they don't provide much in the way of hard data, it's mostly anecdotes.

Some articles say your relationship with your employer is like your relationship with your partner - any indication of looking elsewhere is disloyalty, and will inevitably lead to a break-up down the line if not now. Or it'll put you first in line for lay-offs. Other articles say your employer has a moral duty to pay a 'fair' amount, and if you can get 20% more elsewhere, that shows you should resent your current employer, and leave on principle. Or that threatening to quit and not following through makes you "the boy who cried wolf" and shows a lack of integrity. Or that the fact you were interviewing in the first place shows you weren't satisfied and fulfilled at your current job.

A lot of the articles are written by recruiters. They don't want people to take the counter-offer because it means they miss out on their 20% commission.

Personally I once accepted a counter-offer and it went just fine - in fact, the job offer would have needed an hour-long commute, whereas my job at the time had a 20 minute commute, so I got the extra money without the extra commute. It didn't limit my career or get me laid off or anything.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#105

Post by cloudengineer94 »

Absolutely, but also you need to make sure you take on the strategical work of your manager and not the typical day 2 day stuff at operational/expected level, you need to do stuff above your waist line.

I liked the article and it’s right, but at the end of the day you also need to make sure your manager puts you up for promotion and that he is allowed by their management as well.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#106

Post by makeitdouble »

_ea1k wrote: post #102

These posts fascinate me, as I must admit that I never really realized there were so many people focused almost exclusively on promotion. Is it really that common, or do these posts just bring out those types of comments? TBH, in this field, it seems like other problems are often more pressing: - I've been a developer in XX language for NN years. How do I get my next job when the company is now hiring YY developers i…

If the CTO is setting their position as the goal, we're talking about the managerial ladder.

ICs and specialists (I see product managers and directors as specialists as well) should have other options, but if all you're managing is people, getting more people under you is usually the only path forward.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#107

Post by gloryjulio »

ryandrake wrote: post #95
gloryjulio wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Promotions are not a reward for past performance. Instead, they are a bet that you will contribute more towards those goals with a promotion than without one. Actually, you operate on the next level for certain amount of the time. You work with your manager to file for your promotion case. That's how the typical big corps work with promotions. So technically, it is using your past experience to prove that you ar…

> Actually, you operate on the next level for certain amount of the time. You work with your manager to file for your promotion case. That's how the typical big corps work with promotions. This has always struck me as a pretty juicy deal going for the corporation. They get N years of "next level" work out of you while still being able to pay those N years in "previous level" salary. Good deal for them. How ridiculous…

That's true. I am out of the promotion game grind now. Personally, I have reached my ceiling and the time is better spent else where.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#108

Post by GMoromisato »

makeitdouble wrote: post #103
GMoromisato wrote: post #33

In my view, the meta-advice is to understand the goals and constraints of your boss (and their boss), and work towards those goals (while adhering to the constraints). With that perspective, we can derive some rules of thumb: 1. Promotions are not a reward for past performance. Instead, they are a bet that you will contribute more towards those goals with a promotion than without one. 2. As the OP says, if you are de…

Smaller details for your bigger picture: > 1. Promotions are not a reward for past performance. Instead, they are a bet that you will contribute more towards those goals with a promotion than without one. It's both. You reasonably can't keep someone in the same position for 5 years when their market value has long gone past that point and they're expecting more. Even if you're not sure they won't be Peter principled…

These are great clarifications.

And I agree that, taken to an extreme, this is abusive towards employees. But I think most (good) companies handle this pretty well.

I've seen a couple of patterns:

1. Your boss trusts that your instinct are aligned with theirs, and gives you more latitude. Maybe they allow you to design architecture your way rather than requiring detailed review. Maybe they delegate reviewing other people's code to you.

2. You understand enough about your boss's goals/constraints that you can represent them. E.g., they might trust you to represent them at a cross-functional meeting.

Either way, your name will come to their mind when promotions are available.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#109

Post by jofzar »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #101
crazygringo wrote: post #63

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your level. The problem is, you're not getting paid what you deserve for that . If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level . Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the proc…

As a boss-man myself, I’ve seen this “don’t let them take advantage of you” sentiment expressed in many discussions about comp and promotions, but I can’t really say I understand it. Am I just out of touch? As I read it, the article is simply trying to help people understand what kind of work is valuable to a company and therefore what they should focus on to make themselves valuable. I presume that making yourself v…

> Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best because “you’re not getting paid … for that” just feels so cynical and divorced from how I’ve seen successful people grow and make big bucks in tech

The question is always how long you are "working" at the higher level.

I have worked at jobs where I was working 2 levels higher then I was for close to 3 years before my new manager came in and fixed that shit (got two promotions in 2 years).

As an individual contributor you are diluting your IC's value of the same people level if you are working at a higher level for free, the expectations is then that everyone else at your level does it and then it becomes the new normal, it's the "A rising tide lifts all boats" but in a negative connotation.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#110

Post by neumann »

crazygringo wrote: post #63

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your level. The problem is, you're not getting paid what you deserve for that . If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level . Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the proc…

This is definitely something to be aware of - especially with larger companies that aren't growing fast and this culture begins to be baked in. You see so many colleagues going the extra mile past their role requirements to earn that rare promotion, essentially jockeying to be in the running. All hands are about 'calling out' great performers and thanking them. Thank them by paying them more please.

As soon as they get the promotion, the work piles on even more, and they won't be given the amount they would if they switched companies.

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