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The great shift of English prose

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Re: The great shift of English prose

#41
post #38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russian is much more conducive to long sentences because it's highly inflected. Adjectives have to agree with the nouns, and verbs can carry the grammatical gender and person markers. This all helps to keep the context clearer, the reader doesn't have to strain their brain to connect the clauses. So long-winded descriptions fit really well into the flow of the text. It just feels more artificial and self-indulgent in…

> Chinese novels are on the other side of the spectrum. The sentences simply can't be very long and but often don't have any connecting words between sentences. The readers have to infer. There is no grammatical ceiling on sentence length in Sinitic languages, Chinese languages (all of them) can form long sentences, and they all do possess a great many connecting words. Computational work on Chinese explicitly talks…

Sure. You can try to create arbitrarily long sentences with nested clauses in Chinese. Just like in English you can create arbitrarily long sentences like: "I live in a house which was built by the builders which were hired by the owner who came from England on a steamship which was built...".

But it feels unnatural. So most Chinese sentences are fairly short as a result. And it's also why commas, stops, and even spacing between words are a fairly recent invention. They are simply not needed when the text is formed of implicitly connected statements that don't need to be deeply nested.

To give an example, here's our favorite long-winded Ishmael: "Yes, here were a set of sea-dogs, many of whom without the slightest bashfulness had boarded great whales on the high seas—entire strangers to them—and duelled them dead without winking; and yet, here they sat at a social breakfast table—all of the same calling, all of kindred tastes—looking round as sheepishly at each other as though they had never been out of sight of some sheepfold among the Green Mountains." The Chinese translation is: "是的,这里坐着的是一群老水手,其中有很多人,在怒海中会毫不畏怯地登到巨鲸的背上——那可是他们一无所知的东西啊——眼都不眨地把鲸鱼斗死;然而,这时他们一起坐在公共的早餐桌上——同样的职业,同样的癖好——他们却互相羞怯地打量着对方,仿佛是绿山山从未出过羊圈的绵羊"

Or word-for-word: "Yes, here sitting [people] are the group of old sailors, among them there are many people, [who] in the middle of the raging sea can/will without fear on the whale's back climb. That whales were something they knew nothing about".

The subordinate clauses become almost stand-alone statements, and it's up to the reader to connect them.

Re: The great shift of English prose

#42
> ] Before running inside to her irritated mother, the girl threw the ball.

> ] The girl threw the ball. Then she went inside. Her mother sounded irritated.

> Is the second so much easier to read?

The second one is semantically different. In the first sentence, it is pervasive information, from an omnipresent narrator who can peer into the minds of characters, that the mother is irritated.

In the second sequence, the mother sounds irritated: the narrative voice doesn't look inside the mind, but only reports on the external evidence.

In the first sentence, the girl doesn't just go inside; we know that she runs. She also runs to her mother. In the second sequence, she goes inside, not necessarily to her mother.

There is a sense in the first sentence that the girl might know that her mother is irritated before running inside.

There is a sense in the second sequence that the girl learns, together with the reader, that her mother is irritated, only after going inside.

Re: The great shift of English prose

#43
post #41
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese novels are on the other side of the spectrum. The sentences simply can't be very long and but often don't have any connecting words between sentences. The readers have to infer. There is no grammatical ceiling on sentence length in Sinitic languages, Chinese languages (all of them) can form long sentences, and they all do possess a great many connecting words. Computational work on Chinese explicitly talks…

Sure. You can try to create arbitrarily long sentences with nested clauses in Chinese. Just like in English you can create arbitrarily long sentences like: "I live in a house which was built by the builders which were hired by the owner who came from England on a steamship which was built...". But it feels unnatural. So most Chinese sentences are fairly short as a result. And it's also why commas, stops, and even spa…

I can see your point now, and we are in agreement that nested clauses are uncommon and at the very least sound unnatural in Sinitic languages, but it is distinct from «The sentences simply can't be very long and often don't have any connecting words between sentences».

Strictly speaking, complex nested clauses are slowly on the way out of English as well due to the analytical nature of its present form, which is what the cited article partially laments, and remain a distinctive feature of highly inflected languages (German, Scandinavian, Slavic, etc.).

Re: The great shift of English prose

#44

I also see the shrinking sentence length celebrated among my scientific colleagues who abhor the dreaded "run-on sentence". Maybe it is because I have no formal literacy or linguistic training but I mourn this loss; older, classical novels used to have a tremendous flavor in their sentence structure by prioritizing the longform. Some English translations of Russian literature can run into the absurd (sentences at hal…

Yes. A long sentence can be thought of as a room, not a hallway. I learned in high school lit that sentence length is an artistic choice as meaningful as word selection: long sentences can reflect stream of consciousness, recursive thought, associative or digressive exploration. Short sentences can reflect anxiety, urgency, vigilance, cognitive compression. There are a lot of factors that have led to the decay of lon…

> concomitant

Thanks for the new word! Native speaker but I’ve never seen/heard that one before. Might be more common in a commonwealth country though tbf.

Re: The great shift of English prose

#45
post #33

I also see the shrinking sentence length celebrated among my scientific colleagues who abhor the dreaded "run-on sentence". Maybe it is because I have no formal literacy or linguistic training but I mourn this loss; older, classical novels used to have a tremendous flavor in their sentence structure by prioritizing the longform. Some English translations of Russian literature can run into the absurd (sentences at hal…

> Some English translations of Russian literature can run into the absurd (sentences at half a page long), but even then there is a beauty to it. C. K. Scott Moncrieff and Terence Kilmartin’s translation of Marcel Proust’s «In Search of Lost Time (Remembrance of Things Past)» contains nearly half-page long sentences. Many modern readers complain about the substantial difficulty in following such sentences, although I…

likewise. they are staggeringly beautiful when your mind is in "the zone". It's like a kind of focused meditation with images just flooding the mind

Re: The great shift of English prose

#46

I also see the shrinking sentence length celebrated among my scientific colleagues who abhor the dreaded "run-on sentence". Maybe it is because I have no formal literacy or linguistic training but I mourn this loss; older, classical novels used to have a tremendous flavor in their sentence structure by prioritizing the longform. Some English translations of Russian literature can run into the absurd (sentences at hal…

Yes. A long sentence can be thought of as a room, not a hallway. I learned in high school lit that sentence length is an artistic choice as meaningful as word selection: long sentences can reflect stream of consciousness, recursive thought, associative or digressive exploration. Short sentences can reflect anxiety, urgency, vigilance, cognitive compression. There are a lot of factors that have led to the decay of lon…

[deleted]

Re: The great shift of English prose

#47

I also see the shrinking sentence length celebrated among my scientific colleagues who abhor the dreaded "run-on sentence". Maybe it is because I have no formal literacy or linguistic training but I mourn this loss; older, classical novels used to have a tremendous flavor in their sentence structure by prioritizing the longform. Some English translations of Russian literature can run into the absurd (sentences at hal…

Yes. A long sentence can be thought of as a room, not a hallway. I learned in high school lit that sentence length is an artistic choice as meaningful as word selection: long sentences can reflect stream of consciousness, recursive thought, associative or digressive exploration. Short sentences can reflect anxiety, urgency, vigilance, cognitive compression. There are a lot of factors that have led to the decay of lon…

[deleted]

Re: The great shift of English prose

#48

I also see the shrinking sentence length celebrated among my scientific colleagues who abhor the dreaded "run-on sentence". Maybe it is because I have no formal literacy or linguistic training but I mourn this loss; older, classical novels used to have a tremendous flavor in their sentence structure by prioritizing the longform. Some English translations of Russian literature can run into the absurd (sentences at hal…

Yes. A long sentence can be thought of as a room, not a hallway. I learned in high school lit that sentence length is an artistic choice as meaningful as word selection: long sentences can reflect stream of consciousness, recursive thought, associative or digressive exploration. Short sentences can reflect anxiety, urgency, vigilance, cognitive compression. There are a lot of factors that have led to the decay of lon…

[deleted]

Re: The great shift of English prose

#49

> ] Before running inside to her irritated mother, the girl threw the ball. > ] The girl threw the ball. Then she went inside. Her mother sounded irritated. > Is the second so much easier to read? The second one is semantically different. In the first sentence, it is pervasive information, from an omnipresent narrator who can peer into the minds of characters, that the mother is irritated. In the second sequence, the…

>that her mother is irritated

no, only that she sounds irritated, we have to assume there was information we were not party to that the girl was.

Re: The great shift of English prose

#50

> ] Before running inside to her irritated mother, the girl threw the ball. > ] The girl threw the ball. Then she went inside. Her mother sounded irritated. > Is the second so much easier to read? The second one is semantically different. In the first sentence, it is pervasive information, from an omnipresent narrator who can peer into the minds of characters, that the mother is irritated. In the second sequence, the…

>that her mother is irritated no, only that she sounds irritated, we have to assume there was information we were not party to that the girl was.

That could be right. If we imagine that to be a screenplay, then the intent is that the actress portraying the mother sound irritated. It's not necessarily the intent that the daughter character is picking up on the irritation; it's an effect for the audience.
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