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Web development is fun again

ma.ttias.be

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Re: Web development is fun again

#191

Post by imiric »

bitwize wrote: post #165
imiric wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not moving back into development. They're adopting a new approach of producing software, which has nothing to do with the work that software developers do. It's likely that they "left" the field because they were more interested in other roles, which is fine. So now that we have tools that promise to offload the work a software developer does, there are more people interested in simply producing software, and…

It's called being a systems analyst or product manager. Upskill into these roles (while still accepting individual contributor pay) or get left behind.

I'm sorry, "upskill"? The roles you mentioned don't require any more advanced skills than those required for software development—just a different set of skills.

And an IC is not "left behind" if those roles don't interest them. What a ridiculous thing to say. A systems analyst or product manager is not a natural progression for someone who enjoys software development.

Re: Web development is fun again

#192

Post by simonw »

imiric wrote: post #133
elliotbnvl wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! I’ve seen this myself, folks moving back into development after years or decades.

They're not moving back into development. They're adopting a new approach of producing software, which has nothing to do with the work that software developers do. It's likely that they "left" the field because they were more interested in other roles, which is fine. So now that we have tools that promise to offload the work a software developer does, there are more people interested in simply producing software, and…

That IKEA analogy is pretty good, because plenty of people use IKEA furniture to solve the "I need a bookshelf" problem - and often enjoy the process - without feeling like they should call themselves a carpenter.

I bet there are professional carpenters out there who occasionally assemble an IKEA bookshelf because they need something quick and don't want to spend hours building one themselves from scratch.

Re: Web development is fun again

#193

Post by sublinear »

user34283 wrote: post #171
sublinear wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so weird to see this take repeated over and over. I have to assume you have never written a large scale project for the web? The only part where I agree is that you don't need PHP or server-side rendering in general.

I used to think the same about server-side rendering until I more closely looked at React SSR. I think it makes a lot of sense and allows for faster initial rendering of the page while automatically setting up the JS and interactivity in the background.

Couldn't you just static render the parts that you're using SSR for?

I am not trying to be dismissive, but a common strict requirement is static hosting from a CDN, embedded environments, etc.

Re: Web development is fun again

#194

Post by jckahn »

bitwize wrote: post #161
duggan wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Search “centre a div” in Google Wade through ads Skim a treatise on the history of centering content Skim over the “this question is off topic / duplicate” noise if Stack Overflow Find some code on the page Try to map how that code will work in the context of your other layout Realize it’s plain CSS and you’re looking for Tailwind Keep searching Try some stuff until it works Or… Ask LLM. Wait 20-30 seconds. Move on t…

Wait till the VC tap gets shut off. You: Hey ChatGPT, help me center a div. ChatGPT: Certainly, I'd be glad to help! But first you must drink a verification can to proceed. Or: ChatGPT: I'm sorry, you appear to be asking a development-related question, which your current plan does not support. Would you like me to enable "Dev Mode" for an additional $200/month? Drink a verification can to accept charges.

Alternatively, just use a local model with zero restrictions.

Re: Web development is fun again

#195

Post by xav_authentique »

Defletter wrote: post #185
xav_authentique wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is showing the difference between people who like to /make/ things and those that like to make /things/. People that write software because they see a solution for a problem that can be fixed with software seem to benefit the most of LLM technology. It's almost the inverse for the people that write software because they like the process of writing software.

Surely there has to be some level of "getting stuff done"/"achieving a goal" when /making/ things, otherwise you'd be foregoing for-loops because writing each iteration manually is more fun.

Sure, but, in the real world, for the software to deliver a solution, it doesn't really matter if something is modelled in beautiful objects and concise packages, or if it's written in one big method. So for those that are more on the making /things/ side of the spectrum, I guess they wouldn't care if the LLM outputs code that has each iteration written separately.

It's just that if you really like to work on your craftsmanship, you spend most of the time rewriting/remodelling because that's where the fun is if you're more on the /making/ things side of the spectrum, and LLMs don't really assist in that part (yet?). Maybe LLMs could be used to discuss ways to model a problem space?

Re: Web development is fun again

#196

Post by sarchertech »

llmslave2 wrote: post #164
marcellus23 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd be shocked if the developer wasn't actually less productive I agree 10x is a very large number and it's almost certainly smaller—maybe 1.5x would be reasonable. But really? You would be shocked if it was above 1.0x? This kind of comment always strikes me as so infantilizing and rude, to suggest that all these developers are actually slower with AI, but apparently completely oblivious to it and only you know bet…

I would never suggest that only I know better. Plenty of other people are observing the same thing, and there is also research backing it up. Maybe shocked is the wrong term. Surprised, perhaps.

We’re seeing no external indicators of large productivity gains. Even assuming that productivity gains in large corporations are swallowed up by inefficiencies, you’d expect externally verifiable metrics to show a 2x or more increase in productivity among indie developers and small companies.

So far it’s just crickets.

Re: Web development is fun again

#197

Post by beginnings »

agumonkey wrote: post #148
solumunus wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that can be done in 2 days now with an LLM was low hanging fruit to begin with.

I really wonder what long term software engineering projects will become.

anything nontrivial is still long term, nothing has changed

Re: Web development is fun again

#198

Post by llmslave2 »

kmoser wrote: post #175
llmslave2 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but I don't use it to generate code usually. I gave agents a solid go and I didn't feel more productive, just became more stupid.

A year or so ago I was seriously thinking of making a series of videos showing how coding agents were just plain bad at producing code. This was based on my experience trying to get them to do very simple things (e.g. a five-pointed star, or text flowing around the edge of circle, in HTML/CSS). They still tend to fail at things like this, but I've come to realize that there are whole classes of adjacent problems they…

Perhaps it is a skill issue. But I don't really see the point of trying when it seems like the gains are marginal. If agent workflows really do start offering 2x+ level improvements then perhaps I'll switch over, in the meantime I won't have to suffer mental degradation from constant LLM usage.

Re: Web development is fun again

#199

Post by mentos »

ori_b wrote: post #99
mentos wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it hiking if I bought my boots on amazon?

Not if you sit at home wearing boots and looking at photos of mountains. If you want to have boots, that's cool. But is replacing walking with ordering boots and photos making hiking fun again? Or were you only interested in the photos anyway? What part of the process of hiking do you enjoy? And why is it so hard to hear what part of the process of programming people enjoy?

But you’d agree it’s still hiking even if I didn’t tan the leather for the boots myself.

Re: Web development is fun again

#200

Post by ranger_danger »

yason wrote: post #153
simonw wrote: post #7

Something I like about our weird new LLM-assisted world is the number of people I know who are coding again, having mostly stopped as they moved into management roles or lost their personal side project time to becoming parents. AI assistance means you can get something useful done in half an hour, or even while you are doing other stuff. You don't need to carve out 2-4 hours to ramp up any more. If you have signific…

I don't know but to me this all sounds like the antithesis of what makes programming fun. You don't have productivity goals for hobby coding where you'd have to make the most of your half an hour -- that sounds too much like paid work to be fun. If you have a half an hour, you tinker for a half an hour and enjoy it. Then you continue when you have another half an hour again. (Or push into night because you can't make…

I think there can be other equally valid perspectives than your own.

Some people have goals of actually finishing a project instead of just "tinkering"... and that's ok. Some say it might even be necessary.

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