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If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

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Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#191

Post by rsaarelm »

prawks wrote: post #131
up_and_up wrote: post #127

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditatio…

If one were looking to get into Meditation, what is a good way of going about it? Preferably a DIY way if possible, but if a class is really the way to go that's okay. When you say years of sincere effort, are you talking devoting a full-time job's worth of time, or just keeping a routine? I've been interested in meditation for a while, but it seems whenever I try and dig around I get completely lost in literature an…

Here's one interesting short guide: http://lesswrong.com/lw/5jj/meditation_insight_and_rationali...

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#192

Post by ncarroll »

up_and_up wrote: post #127

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditatio…

Hmm, if you are timing the experience in order to categorize it later, is your mind, maybe, not empty?

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#193

Post by clbrook »

KirinDave wrote: post #82
shock-value wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically you are arguing that being able to resist distractions isn't a great value in and of itself, at least compared to some other values. Fine. I think a lot of people would disagree, but it's a legitimate viewpoint. But you also claim that taking a period of time in a day to train oneself to resist distractions does not lead to a more focused mindset throughout the day. I think most of us who have practiced med…

> But you also claim that taking a period of time in a day to train oneself to resist distractions does not lead to a more focused mindset throughout the day. I think most of us who have practiced meditation (and actually put real effort in, rather than reflecting on other thoughts during the practice) would disagree. Not to put too fine a point on this, because I'm not trying t pick a fight here, but... Homeopaths w…

The University of Wisconsin-Madison has a scientific research group studying this area. The Center for Investigating Healthy Minds: http://www.investigatinghealthyminds.org/cihmWhat.html

"The Center is embarking on a series of research programs in both long-term meditation practitioners as well as more novice practitioners to examine how such training affects the brain and body, and also to provide critical information on how to structure interventions to make them more successful."

This is a 2010 New York Times article describing that: "The center’s mission was inspired by a meeting between Dr. Davidson and the Dalai Lama in 1992 in the Himalayas." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/us/27happy.html?_r=4&t...;

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#194

Post by kevTheDev »

I've been meditating pretty much every day for a few months now, and the thing that got me into it was getsomeheadspace.com

I've found it incredibly helpful - having a different guided meditation to do on the train every day makes the London commute, whilst not blissful, certainly better.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#195

Post by [deleted] »

jules wrote: post #147
KirinDave wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are "breathing" you are only "breathing". And sitting, and your heart is beating, and you're swallowing, and your eyes are moving reflexively, and you're probably digesting. And what about people with tinnitis? They're often "hearing" something. Sorry, I just don't understand why focusing on a specific topic to the exclusion of everything else is somehow inferior to focusing on breathing. Because your higher…

I think the point is to train your ability to focus on things that you don't naturally focus on. If you like thinking about math and you can easily focus on it without effort, presumably it doesn't have the same training effect. I think the idea of mindfulness is to learn to build up "reflexes" in your mind that cause you to notice certain thoughts at the conscious level. Focusing on your breathing is something so bo…

[deleted]

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#196

Post by hollerith »

crntaylor wrote: post #187
hollerith wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't go in for doing the same thing over and over like some Buddhists like to do. It's just a timer, which I set for 3 to 5 minutes. When the timer reaches 0, (part of) a particular song plays. (And a record is made of the start and end times of the meditation session.) In the rare case that I am doing something other than meditating when that song plays, I know I got so distracted that I did not even notice I got…

Do you find that 3-5 minutes is enough? I just tried meditating for the first time, and set a 5 minute timer. When it went off, it felt like only 2 minutes had passed and I could have (and wanted to) go on longer.

The effect I am going for is to reduce my body's production of stress hormones. Consulting a clinical psychologist and Googling around on the phrase "mindfulness-based stress reduction" lead me to believe that 4 minutes a day suffices to get that effect.

Also, those 3-5 minutes sometimes cause subjective experiences of increased calmness that tend to last the rest of the day.

It probably takes longer durations to achieve some of the other effects commonly ascribed to meditation (e.g., becoming more contented). I have tried longer durations, but I judge that in my particular case they are more likely to be harmful than helpful.

Specifically, I have a bit of a chronic health problem which necessitates that my immune system remain always strong and active. Getting too much sun and not getting enough sleep are 2 things that personal experiences lead me to believe are bad for me -- and according to immunology researchers, those 2 things suppress the immune system. The suppression tends to last only a few hours or a day, but that is long enough for me to notice bad effects. Meditating for hours at a time produced subjective effects in me similar to the effects of those 2 other things that suppress my immune system.

So, that is one reason I avoid long meditation sessions and tend to advise other people with chronic health issues similar to mine to do the same.

Sometimes (particularly, in the rare situation described in grandparent in which the first meditation session of the day ends with me looking at a web browser, looking at some file on my computer or doing something else other than meditating) I do 2 to 4 sessions (of 3 to 5 minutes each) a day, and I have not experienced the adverse health effect mentioned above on such days.

By the way, a large part of time I am meditating I am resisting urges (the theme of the OP) rather than doing what most meditators describe, namely, resisting attachment to or involvement in sensations or resisting dwelling on regrets about the past or worries about the future. Specifically, urges to execute a sequence of motor actions (e.g., get out of my chair and move something that needs moving) or to plan out how to achieve some goal.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#197

Post by mikeash »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #134
mikeash wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that resisting distraction while meditating makes it easier for you to resist urges otherwise? Maybe we actually have a finite store of urge-resistance to go through each day, and spending it on meditation actually makes things worse . I'm not saying that's true, but I think GP's point is that we should really have some kind of evidence that meditation helps with this, rather than simply assuming that…

Short term, it probably does make things worse. There are studies about limited willpower, like when you measure the patience of people by having them performing a chore, the control group have more patience than the group that where explicitly forbidden to eat that cookie over there. But doing it every morning is different. First, by making it a habit, you don't need as much willpower as you did the first times. And…

"And if it trains willpower, then the long term result will likely be better than doing nothing."

This is the key. Does it train willpower? Is it like physical exercise? Or does it just deplete, with no benefit?

I can see the reason for thinking it might be a benefit, but without actually showing that it is, it seems wrong to just assume.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#198

Post by davidtanner »

joelthelion wrote: post #190
Hari_Seldon wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that there is a tendency amongst us westerners to believe that meditation is about attaining something, Chögyam Trungpa described this as a type of "spiritual materialism". I've noticed this behaviour repeatedly, people feeling the need to quantify theirs and others progress or lack thereof. If the writer of the TFA experiences 4 seconds of emptying his mind and a state of bliss, does it really matter that he…

>I think that there is a tendency amongst us westerners to believe that meditation is about attaining something Of course there is. It's the only rational reason to do something: for present or future benefit. Otherwise you quit the realm of reason and enter the domain of religion.

That is what many Westerners, especially those here on HN, miss. Meditation is expressly a religious/spiritual tool.

It's a technology of the sacred in the same way that visionary plants and chemicals are. In fact visionary plants can be a very effective preview/shortcut of the end goals a meditator wishes to reach.The point of meditation is to quiet the mind so that one can know God*

*Where here "God" means an experiential state of nondual, atemporal awareness radically different from our normal states of waking and dreaming.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#199

Post by sophacles »

prawks wrote: post #131
up_and_up wrote: post #127

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditatio…

If one were looking to get into Meditation, what is a good way of going about it? Preferably a DIY way if possible, but if a class is really the way to go that's okay. When you say years of sincere effort, are you talking devoting a full-time job's worth of time, or just keeping a routine? I've been interested in meditation for a while, but it seems whenever I try and dig around I get completely lost in literature an…

Different people lear different ways of course, but for me what worked really well was reading about it, a lot, on the internet and trying out various things. At the same time I went to a local zen center that does mindful meditation. They have a short course on various techniques, and people who have been practicing for a long time - this is always good for me, I like to ask questions. The other nice thing about the zen center is that 2 days a week they had sitting meditation time. So you show up, and meditate in a big room with other people. Again, just personal preference, but being there, where the meditation was the focus, helped me not succumb to distraction (also, because I didn't want to be rude and be fidgety, noisy,or otherwise distracting to other poeple).

As for sincere effort, it isn't full time job style, but, it isn't "just" keeping a routine. It is keeping a routine, and actively trying to improve your meditation technique. Much like going golfing every week isn't the same as intentionally practicing your swing or putting with a coach every week.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#200

Post by happimess »

crntaylor wrote: post #187
hollerith wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't go in for doing the same thing over and over like some Buddhists like to do. It's just a timer, which I set for 3 to 5 minutes. When the timer reaches 0, (part of) a particular song plays. (And a record is made of the start and end times of the meditation session.) In the rare case that I am doing something other than meditating when that song plays, I know I got so distracted that I did not even notice I got…

Do you find that 3-5 minutes is enough? I just tried meditating for the first time, and set a 5 minute timer. When it went off, it felt like only 2 minutes had passed and I could have (and wanted to) go on longer.

If you felt like you could have gone longer, then I'm sure you could have gone longer. Two things worth noting, however:

First, it's good to have a minimum amount of time in mind for a meditation session, and stick to it. You can always stay seated after your timer goes off. Without a firm minimum, it's very easy to stop as soon as you get fidgety. Speaking from my own experience, sitting through fidgetiness has been the immediate precursor to some of my most meaningful progress in meditation.

Second, consistency is more important than intensity. My (personal, inexpert) recommendation is to choose a time that you can manage every day, and stick with it. Don't over-commit, or you may get burned out. For me, 20 minutes is about right. YMMV.

Stick with it! It's very rewarding.

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