If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This • Hacker News Board

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#131

Post by prawks » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:23 PM UTC

up_and_up wrote: post #127

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditatio…

If one were looking to get into Meditation, what is a good way of going about it? Preferably a DIY way if possible, but if a class is really the way to go that's okay.

When you say years of sincere effort, are you talking devoting a full-time job's worth of time, or just keeping a routine?

I've been interested in meditation for a while, but it seems whenever I try and dig around I get completely lost in literature and terms and fail to see a proper starting point. I'm not looking to go crazy, I like the idea of Mindfullness and having a better understanding of how to control the ebb and flow of your thoughts.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#132

Post by dscrd » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:25 PM UTC

webwanderings wrote: post #2

The misconception about meditation is that it requires one to give up everything and sit silently. This is not true in its entirety as it depends on how one interprets the word "meditation". The meditation does not necessarily require you to give up one thing for the sake of another. The goal of the meditation is to "be in awareness" and you can achieve this same goal by being alert and aware with any activity your f…

"The misconception about meditation is that it requires one to give up everything and sit silently."

How I think it, giving up everything and sitting silently is a form of practice. You cannot be in-present with whatever activity you do if your mental muscle isn't toned for it.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#133

Post by lobo_tuerto » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:25 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #86

dwiel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are "cats" you are also "breathing". If you are "breathing" you are only "breathing".

> If you are "breathing" you are only "breathing". And sitting, and your heart is beating, and you're swallowing, and your eyes are moving reflexively, and you're probably digesting. And what about people with tinnitis? They're often "hearing" something. Sorry, I just don't understand why focusing on a specific topic to the exclusion of everything else is somehow inferior to focusing on breathing. Because your higher…

Maybe because breathing is something you are actually doing, while you _can't_ do "cats".

Basically you are fusing something you are doing with your complete attention. And that is on a different level than "cats".

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#134

Post by loup-vaillant » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #113

adorton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meditation is the focused practice of resisting distraction. Have you ever tried sitting still for 15-30 minutes, doing nothing but breathing? Distractions come easily in this state. Sometimes it's your thoughts. Other times, it's very hard to resist the urge to get up and start moving. In order to successfully meditate, you need to deal with a wide variety of distractions and other obstacles.

How do you know that resisting distraction while meditating makes it easier for you to resist urges otherwise? Maybe we actually have a finite store of urge-resistance to go through each day, and spending it on meditation actually makes things worse . I'm not saying that's true, but I think GP's point is that we should really have some kind of evidence that meditation helps with this, rather than simply assuming that…

Short term, it probably does make things worse. There are studies about limited willpower, like when you measure the patience of people by having them performing a chore, the control group have more patience than the group that where explicitly forbidden to eat that cookie over there.

But doing it every morning is different. First, by making it a habit, you don't need as much willpower as you did the first times. And if it trains willpower, then the long term result will likely be better than doing nothing.

Similarly, when you exercise in the morning, it leaves you more tired for the rest of the day. Your muscles may even ache the following morning. But do it every (other) day, and it (i) won't be that tiring, and (ii) you'll be in better shape anyway.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#135

Post by up_and_up » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

prawks wrote: post #131

up_and_up wrote: post #127

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditatio…

If one were looking to get into Meditation, what is a good way of going about it? Preferably a DIY way if possible, but if a class is really the way to go that's okay. When you say years of sincere effort, are you talking devoting a full-time job's worth of time, or just keeping a routine? I've been interested in meditation for a while, but it seems whenever I try and dig around I get completely lost in literature an…

Thanks for the question. I started with DIY meditation. I got a couple of books, mainly the techniques were repeating some phrase, focusing on the breath etc. This was okay for me to start. But I have been working with a teacher for about 12 years, which really helped. There are lots of different types of meditation, some with religious or spiritual undertones and others that are completely outside all that. Find a style that you vibe with based on what you think/believe and run with that.

By "years of sincere effort" I mean practicing daily. 20-30 mins is probably enough to start. I would compare it to playing an instrument. Daily practice is pretty essential.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#136

Post by webwanderings » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:35 PM UTC

up_and_up wrote: post #127

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditatio…

The mindfulness, which I called meditation below, is sort of a way to say that you - any average individual - can get on the path of blissfulness without waiting for, or waiting to start the path of meditation (of your example).

It really all boils down to each individual and their capacity of how they wish to learn.

Some people can easily start the meditation (of any type beginning with what the author describe in the source, of breathing exercises) to mantra meditation to anything else. However, if the above methods does not come easily to you, you can still meditate by being in here-now (what you describe as mindfulness).

The point is, that we don't have to be dogmatic about meditation and everyone can easily and equally get on the path of bliss and self-improvement in all walks of life.

For far too long, the traditional culture has sort of relegated the arts and artists to the lower pole of meaningful life. What is being suggested here is that either you can plainly observe the sun rising, or you can take pride in your singing or painting....all of these artistic self-expressions give you containment which leads to blissfulness...something an average meditator of various type would achieve by sitting idle or concentrating as their practice.

The more one stays in here-now, the more the mind sheds the distractions, the more there is bliss.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#137

Post by KirinDave » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:37 PM UTC

shock-value wrote: post #91

KirinDave wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like similar benefits to exercising.

I don't think anyone is arguing that physically exercising wouldn't provide some of the same mental benefits of meditation. I for one think that it would. (Especially the act of forcing oneself to go to the gym, rather than just having fun playing basketball with friends--even if the exercise content is the same). But in your original post you are doubting that meditation has these benefits at all. I think that is wh…

> But in your original post you are doubting that meditation has these benefits at all.

I am arguing there is no basis for the claims of specific benefits. I never disputed that meditation clearly does something. It's just not clear that something is at all meaningful, or lines up with the article's motivations.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#138

Post by webwanderings » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:41 PM UTC

prawks wrote: post #131

up_and_up wrote: post #127

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditatio…

If one were looking to get into Meditation, what is a good way of going about it? Preferably a DIY way if possible, but if a class is really the way to go that's okay. When you say years of sincere effort, are you talking devoting a full-time job's worth of time, or just keeping a routine? I've been interested in meditation for a while, but it seems whenever I try and dig around I get completely lost in literature an…

As part of my DYI, I would drop the guilt of not being able to go the traditional route. Being mindful, staying in here-now, is not easy either and it may not work for you well, but it is something one can try quiet easily at any given moment. When you walk, observe. When you eat, observe and only eat. Taste the food and only eat. So on and so forth. I believe this is the best DIY of meditation, though not everyone agrees that being mindfulness is meditation, but I tend to think that it IS meditation and not necessarily mindfulness, because the goal of being in here-now is to eliminate the distraction of past/future and not really to concentrate. However, on the other hand, the typical meditation techniques (of mantra or other types) would want you to concentrate on something.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#139

Post by papsosouid » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:41 PM UTC

mck- wrote: post #108

papsosouid wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Training your consciousness by playing sports vs sitting in lotus is analogous to training your biceps by rowing vs biceps curls. The latter is more targeted, hence more effective. Only if your goal is to make your biceps bigger. If your goal is to gain strength, isolation is less effective, as strength involves more than just one muscle, it also involves stabilizing muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc. Who says traini…

Interesting.. how many moving parts does consciousness have? To me, consciousness and the mind are but one thing.

We don't know, which is why such analogies don't provide real insight.

Re: If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This

#140

Post by notJim » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

adorton wrote: post #14

KirinDave wrote: post #8

Wait. Wait wait wait. > Research shows that an ability to resist urges will improve your relationships, increase your dependability, and raise your performance... Great. Yes. Impulse control is key. Delayed gratification is part of how we define higher intelligence. Meditation has what do with this, exactly? > How [does meditation help]? By increasing your capacity to resist distracting urges. This entire article is…

Meditation is the focused practice of resisting distraction. Have you ever tried sitting still for 15-30 minutes, doing nothing but breathing? Distractions come easily in this state. Sometimes it's your thoughts. Other times, it's very hard to resist the urge to get up and start moving. In order to successfully meditate, you need to deal with a wide variety of distractions and other obstacles.

> Meditation is the focused practice of resisting distraction.

So is actually practicing resisting distraction in vivo, except that it's directly applicable. You're argument is exactly the “of course it does!” argument that your parent was referring to.

Without studies, we don't actually know whether the skills in resisting distraction during meditation actually transfer to other situations.

To quote your parent:

One cannot just say things over and over to make them true.