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Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

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Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#61

This is all so crazy to me. I went to school long before LLMs were even a Google Engineer's brianfart for the transformer paper and the way I took exams was already AI proof. Everything hand written in pen in a proctored gymnasium. No open books. No computers or smart phones, especially ones connected to the internet. Just a department sanctioned calculator for math classes. I wrote assembly and C++ code by hand, and…

I've had colleagues argue (prior to LLMs) that oral exams are superior to paper exams, for diagnosing understanding. I don't know how to validate that statement, but if the assumption is true than there is merit to finding a way to scale them. Not saying this is it, but I wouldn't say that it's fair to just dismiss oral exams entirely.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#62
> We surveyed students before releasing grades to capture their experience. [...] Only 13% preferred the AI oral format. 57% wanted traditional written exams. [...] 83% of students found the oral exam framework more stressful than a written exam.

[...]

> Take-home exams are dead. Reverting to pen-and-paper exams in the classroom feels like a regression.

Yeah, not sure the conclusion of the article really matches the data.

Students were invited to talk to an AI. They did so, and having done so they expressed a clear preference for written exams - which can be taken under exam conditions to prevent cheating, something universities have hundreds of years of experience doing.

I know some universities started using the square wheel of online assessment during covid and I can see how this octagonal wheel seems good if you've only ever seen a square wheel. But they'd be even better off with a circular wheel, which really doesn't need re-inventing.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#63
post #3

It's dehumanizing to be grilled by AI, whether it is a job interview or a university exam. ...but OTOH if cheating is so easy it's impossible to resist and when everyone cheats honest students are the ones getting all the bad grades, what else can you do?

What else can you do? Get grilled by another human, not an AI.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#64
Is there an evaluation of how good the questioning was? Did TFA review the transcripts for that? Did I miss it?

> The grading was stricter than my own default. That's not a bug. Students will be evaluated outside the university, and the world is not known for grade inflation.

Good!

> 83% of students found the oral exam framework more stressful than a written exam.

That's alright -- that's how life goes. This reminds me of a history teacher I had in middle school who told us how oral exams were done at the university he had studied in: in class, each student would come up to the front, pick three topics at random from a lottery-ball-picker type setup, and then they'd have a few minutes in which to explain how all three are related. I would think that would be stressful except to those who enjoy the topic (in this case: history) and mastered the material.

> Accessibility defaults. Offer practice runs, allow extra time, and provide alternatives when voice interaction creates unnecessary barriers.

Yes, obviously this won't work for deaf students. But why must it be an oral examination anyways? In the real world (see above example) you can't cheat at an oral examination because you're physically present, with no cheat sheets, just you, and you have to answer in real time. But these are "take-at-home" oral exams, so they had to add a requirement of audio/video recording to restore the value of the "physically present" part of old-school oral exams -- if you could do something like that for written exams, surely you would?

Clearly a take-home written exam would be prone to cheating even with a real-time AI examiner, but the real-time requirement might be good enough in many cases, and probably always for in-class exams.

Oh, that brings me to: TFA does not explicitly say it, but it strongly implies that these oral exams were take-at-home exams! This is a very important detail. Obviously the students couldn't do concurrent oral exams in class, not unless they were all wearing high quality headsets (and even then). The exams could have been in school facilities with one student present at a time, but that would have taken a lot of time and would not have required that the student provide webcam+audio recordings -- the school would have performed those recordings themselves.

My bottom-line take: you can have a per-student AI examiner, and this is more important than the exam being oral, as long as you can prevent cheating where the exam is not oral.

PS: A sample of FakeFoster would have been nice. I found videos online of Foster Provost speaking, but it's hard to tell from those how intimidating FakeFoster might have been.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#65

This is all so crazy to me. I went to school long before LLMs were even a Google Engineer's brianfart for the transformer paper and the way I took exams was already AI proof. Everything hand written in pen in a proctored gymnasium. No open books. No computers or smart phones, especially ones connected to the internet. Just a department sanctioned calculator for math classes. I wrote assembly and C++ code by hand, and…

TFA's case involved examinations about the student's submitted project work. It's not the same thing. Even for a more traditional examination with no such context attached one might still want to rely on AI for grading. (Yeah, I know, that comes across as "the students are not allowed to use AI for cheating, but the profs are!".)

Also, IMO oral examinations are quite powerful for detecting who is prepared and who isn't. On the down side they also help the extroverts and the confident, and you have to be careful about preventing a bias towards those.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#66
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a teleprompter is already enough to cheat at these, even filmed. With a two-way mirror correctly placed, you can look directly into the camera and look perfectly normal while reading. Next steps are bone conduction microphones, smart glasses, earrings... And the weeding out of anyone both honest and with social anxiety.

My cohort was actively working with invisible realy-inside ear speakers.

Make them wear school-provided inside-ear headphones to hear the exam.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#67
Oral quals were OK and even kind of fun with faculty who I knew and who knew me especially in the context of grad school where it was more a "we know you know this but want to watch you think and haze you a little bit". Having an AI do it's poor simulacrum of this sounds like absolute hell on earth and I can't believe this person thinks it's a good idea.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#68

> We surveyed students before releasing grades to capture their experience. [...] Only 13% preferred the AI oral format. 57% wanted traditional written exams. [...] 83% of students found the oral exam framework more stressful than a written exam. [...] > Take-home exams are dead. Reverting to pen-and-paper exams in the classroom feels like a regression. Yeah, not sure the conclusion of the article really matches the…

That's what so surprising to me - they data clearly shows the experiment had terrible results. And the write up is nothing but the author stating: "glowing success!".

And they didn't even bother to test the most important thing. Were the LLM evaluations even accurate! Have graders manually evaluate them and see if the LLMs were even close or were wildly off.

This is clearly someone who had a conclusion to promote regardless of what the data was going to show.

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#69
post #6

> Many students who had submitted thoughtful, well-structured work could not explain basic choices in their own submission after two follow-up questions. When I was doing a lot of hiring we offered the option (don’t roast me, it was an alternative they could choose if they wanted) of a take-home problem they could do on their own. It was reasonably short, like the kind of problem an experienced developer could do in…

>we’re using synthetic pronouns You've piqued my interest!

Sorry! That was supposed to be "problems". I've edited it. Thanks for catching it

Re: Fighting Fire with Fire: Scalable Oral Exams

#70
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a teleprompter is already enough to cheat at these, even filmed. With a two-way mirror correctly placed, you can look directly into the camera and look perfectly normal while reading. Next steps are bone conduction microphones, smart glasses, earrings... And the weeding out of anyone both honest and with social anxiety.

My cohort was actively working with invisible realy-inside ear speakers.

Do you have anything you can share, like links to the product?
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