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Don’t Work for Assholes

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Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#41

Post by donw »

walesmd wrote: post #17
josefresco wrote: post #11

I too worked for an asshole, but not in the freelance capacity but as an employee. The worst part was he would recognize that he was an asshole and apologize all the time, only to go back to being an asshole soon after. I always wanted to tell him that recognizing that you're an asshole and not breaking the behavior was worse than someone who's an asshole and doesn't know it.

I am, admittedly, one of those assholes. I don't characterize myself as rude (I keep my mouth closed when I chew, I stay away from others and doorways when I smoke, I hold doors open for people). But, if you get in a conversation with me, I will take control. I tend to talk over people to get my point across (although I don't care whether you agree with me or not, not in an attempt to convince) and I tend to talk to…

I tend to be the same way, and I think that simply having an awareness that you're dominating the conversation is a big first step. What are some techniques that you use to stop yourself from stomping over everybody else, at least verbally?

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#42

Post by kurtosis »

pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary."

Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and treat you like dirt and you will still cooperate. If people refused to cooperate with assholes, or imposed a cost on assholish behaviour then it would stop or be reduced. The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes.

I don't think there's anything magical about these instincts. If you observe someone treating another person badly, it's entirely reasonable to imagine that they will do the same to you.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#43

Post by robotron »

forthewin wrote: post #34
ajju wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I have to report status 3 times a day! I want to quit as soon as I can, but I always thought this frquency was the norm not the exception.Are you saying majority of the big co bosses ask you for status less than 3 times a week?

At my last job, we had biweekly status meetings that sometimes slipped to once a month?

I have to barely report once a week.... but this certainly isn't BigCo as far as number of employees go.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#44

Post by JesseAldridge »

edw519 wrote: post #19

Competent + Nice = Best Combination Competent + Asshole = I'll put up with them Incompetent + Nice = I'll hold their hand Incompetent + Asshole = You've got to be kidding

"Competent + Asshole = I'll put up with them"

I disagree here. These guys can really screw you over. Having to watch your back all the time is stressful and distracting.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#45

Post by pg »

derefr wrote: post #36
pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

Does this extend to not selling your product to, or marketing to, assholes? I can see "don't have assholes as repeat/contract-based clients" as obvious, but what about "don't have assholes as one-time customers?" If you never have to deal with them again, does it matter?

Yes, it's ok to have assholes as customers. One of the great things about the seller-customer relationship is that it's proof against that.

When you have asshole customers, it's usually possible to turn them by being really nice to them. This doesn't seem to be the case with bosses. So that is another great thing about the seller-customer relationship.

I think the key is that there is no authority mixed into it. Assholes and authority are a bad combination.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#46

Post by jfarmer »

pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

I learned this the hard way. The really hard way. :(

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#47

Post by lallysingh »

edw519 wrote: post #19

Competent + Nice = Best Combination Competent + Asshole = I'll put up with them Incompetent + Nice = I'll hold their hand Incompetent + Asshole = You've got to be kidding

Two points:

1. Definition: crackhead - n. - A person who's actually very nice and supportive, but ends up treating you terribly anyway. E.g. terrible organization, constantly panicking over nothing, etc.

Avoid crackheads. Just leave them be.

2. I believe Competent Assholes can be dealt with if you've got a good contract

You know, eventually someone's going to make some DnD style cards for different kinds of bosses. Would be great if someone made these for VCs :-)

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#48

Post by lallysingh »

walesmd wrote: post #17
josefresco wrote: post #11

I too worked for an asshole, but not in the freelance capacity but as an employee. The worst part was he would recognize that he was an asshole and apologize all the time, only to go back to being an asshole soon after. I always wanted to tell him that recognizing that you're an asshole and not breaking the behavior was worse than someone who's an asshole and doesn't know it.

I am, admittedly, one of those assholes. I don't characterize myself as rude (I keep my mouth closed when I chew, I stay away from others and doorways when I smoke, I hold doors open for people). But, if you get in a conversation with me, I will take control. I tend to talk over people to get my point across (although I don't care whether you agree with me or not, not in an attempt to convince) and I tend to talk to…

I'm in a similar boat -- I'll happily be an asshole to those on the other side of the line, wherever I draw it. Usually it's in defense of someone I know, but that's all a matter, again of where I draw that line.

But yeah, I can really be an asshole in those situations. On the bright side, fear of being an asshole has made me learn some pretty good negotiation/people skillz.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#49

Post by olefoo »

kurtosis wrote: post #42
pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary." Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and trea…

> The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes.

So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole?

I'm asking this from a serious, hacking-the-monkeyware perspective.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#50

Post by kurtosis »

olefoo wrote: post #49
kurtosis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary." Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and trea…

> The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes. So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole? I'm asking this from a serious, hacking-the-monkeyware perspective.

public exposure / abandonment

Break out the back of the envelope and calculate how much it would cost you to break all contacts with anuses. Is it worth it? Make sure people find out how you were treated.

A guy I respect much for his technical skills wanted to go in with me a very interesting and technically challenging project in vison / imaging. Even though I have always been on friendly terms with this person with good rapport, and actually enjoy talking tech stuff with him - I refused just because of the way I have seen him treat other people. There was lots of vindictiveness, a tendency toward feuding. I didn't want to risk being involved with that no matter how interesting the work.

if you must deal with aholes or if you are unsure if a person is an ahole keep the stakes low. don't be an ahole yourself, and of course, most people aren't aholes.

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