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Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

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Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#11

Post by loveparade »

otikik wrote: post #8

I see this: > The consequence is me, spending a few hours debugging my environment instead of writing code. But then I also see this: > I’ve spent a lot of time recently moving my entire workflow into a declarative system using nix. I can see how this can be beneficial for someone who switches systems very often, reinstalls their OS from scratch very often, or just derives a lot of pleasure/peace of mind knowing that…

In the six years you are using your computer, do you ever expect to run into versioning issues and conflicts? Homebrew packages conflicting with local packages, something you compile give needs a different python/ruby/node/rust/whatever version that you have locally installed, you want to quickly try out a new package or upgrade without changing your system but have the option of rolling back safely, need to quickly install a database, want to try out a new shell and shell config but don't brick your system and have the option to roll back, etc. Nix gives you all of that and more for a one-time setup cost. Your argument is correct only if you expect to never change anything on your computer for the 6 years. But if I think about how often I have fought with homebrew or some kind of versioning/path/binary conflicts in the past then the investment in nix has paid off exponentially.

It's also about peace of mind like you said. Before nix I sometimes felt anxiety installing or upgrading certain things on my computer. "Will this upgrade break stuff?" - and often it did and I'd have to spend the next few hours debugging. With nix I don't worry about any of that anymore.

Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#12

Post by Cu3PO42 »

Etheryte wrote: post #3
turtleyacht wrote: post #2

It would be nice to set up immutable config down to the granularity of a git commit, sharing it as a single file, and be able to reproduce that setup on anyone's machine. Instant onboarding and mirrored production (barring secrets).

For me, this is the holy grail. Every time I switch laptops, I lift all my config files and such over, but there's always so many system level configs and other things that you have to go and manually fiddle. On top of that, some apps don't really behave well when you just move config files to e.g. under a different username etc. Would be nice if there was a comprehensive solution to this problem, need to try nix-dar…

nix-darwin is essentially this. I have a small bootstrap script to install Xcode CLI and Nix, git clone my dotfiles and activate the config. That in turn sets up the system, also installs Homebrew, installs apps from the App store and sets up all my configs. The only thing I need to do after is sign into some accounts.

Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#14

Post by undeveloper »

otikik wrote: post #8

I see this: > The consequence is me, spending a few hours debugging my environment instead of writing code. But then I also see this: > I’ve spent a lot of time recently moving my entire workflow into a declarative system using nix. I can see how this can be beneficial for someone who switches systems very often, reinstalls their OS from scratch very often, or just derives a lot of pleasure/peace of mind knowing that…

> I change computers once every 6 years or so, maybe more. To me this looks like exchanging a couple (hypothetical) hours of debugging 6 years in the future by tens of (guaranteed) hours trying to climb up the nix learning cliff.

yes, it sounds like it's not worth it for you -- you will have to spend a significant amount of time converting your system to do things "the nix way". you can try to do this incrementally, but it's a time sink, and really easy to get stuck bikeshedding instead of doing work.

for me, it feels like a near equal trade-off between debugging nix, or debugging some random env issues that pop up. i know nix, claude code "knows" nix, a lot of other people online know nix. random env issues are random, and yield worse results on google, and frankly are much more frustrating to the point i would rather spend more time with nix than deal with them. maybe a very weird view.

Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#15

Post by zero0529 »

I did this for a while but MacOS updates broke Nix often enough that I usually would spent some time every week reinstalling it. I still use Nix for dev environments because it is great but Nix still breaks sometimes.

I also really wanted to like the declarative homebrew configuration but it also often didn’t work as expected for some configurations and had a lot of leaky abstractions that straight up just broke sometimes.

If I ever go back to managing my Mac with nix I would probably just do a home-manager setup and just install most of the applications imperatively.

Given this was using an intel based machine around the time when the switch to arm came so a lot of breakage also stemmed from that.

I still use nix to handle my homelab.

My setup up on my Mac is as follows:

- Orbstack

- NixOS machine run in orbstack

- My whole dev environment is run from this container and is very transportable

- GUI apps are installed on my Mac using the App Store or homebrew etc. but I try to reduce the amount of installed applications

- if I have to install something that I don’t want to install but have to, I try to do it in a UTM machine.

Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#16

Post by nothrabannosir »

otikik wrote: post #8

I see this: > The consequence is me, spending a few hours debugging my environment instead of writing code. But then I also see this: > I’ve spent a lot of time recently moving my entire workflow into a declarative system using nix. I can see how this can be beneficial for someone who switches systems very often, reinstalls their OS from scratch very often, or just derives a lot of pleasure/peace of mind knowing that…

Nix is not worth it if all you want is configuring your home computer. The learning curve is steep and has a tall onboarding cliff.

The only way you get positive ROI from Nix is either you enjoy the journey, or you use it to do more than just managing a single computer: you manage a fleet, you build thin application container images, you bundle all your software, you have devshells, repeatable tests and deploys, etc. It's the same tool for all of them.

Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#17

Post by marliechiller »

Ive been using nix-darwin for over a year now after using nixos with flakes for a bit. I now have a singular repo with multiple machine configurations. Nixos for my home server, nix darwin on a macbook air and a nix darwin with a work config. This allows me to have common programs on all machines but also overlay some specialised packages and programs in certain environments. After climbing the initial mountain, its been very satisfying and things just work. My work laptop died recently and I was able to be fully up to speed in a fraction of the time it would have taken me otherwise.

Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#19

Post by trinix912 »

loveparade wrote: post #11
otikik wrote: post #8

I see this: > The consequence is me, spending a few hours debugging my environment instead of writing code. But then I also see this: > I’ve spent a lot of time recently moving my entire workflow into a declarative system using nix. I can see how this can be beneficial for someone who switches systems very often, reinstalls their OS from scratch very often, or just derives a lot of pleasure/peace of mind knowing that…

In the six years you are using your computer, do you ever expect to run into versioning issues and conflicts? Homebrew packages conflicting with local packages, something you compile give needs a different python/ruby/node/rust/whatever version that you have locally installed, you want to quickly try out a new package or upgrade without changing your system but have the option of rolling back safely, need to quickly…

That's mostly solved with env managers for python/ruby/node/..., takes at most a few minutes to fully set up and learn, and doesn't get constantly broken by macOS updates.

Even for things like trying out a new shell you can temporarily move the dotfiles somewhere and restore them back and it still takes less time than converting everything to Nix.

Re: Going immutable on macOS, using Nix-Darwin

#20

Post by qn9n »

otikik wrote: post #8

I see this: > The consequence is me, spending a few hours debugging my environment instead of writing code. But then I also see this: > I’ve spent a lot of time recently moving my entire workflow into a declarative system using nix. I can see how this can be beneficial for someone who switches systems very often, reinstalls their OS from scratch very often, or just derives a lot of pleasure/peace of mind knowing that…

Also with migration assistant on Mac you basically do not need this in anyway shape or form.
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