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On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

laurasanders.net

101–110 of 213 posts

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#101

Also pretty ironic that the author uses sweeping generalizations to dismiss the cited article's sweeping generalizations.

Is this what we've regressed to? Meta-useless articles of people ranting about issues without any proactive work towards understanding, or god forbid, solutions?

When are people going to stop ranting about the problem and start fixing it?

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Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#102

I would lever call a woman I interact with in a professional context a girl. That's so Mad Men. Am I the only one who considers this headline inappropriate for a posting about gender issues at work?

I'm confused. She's not allowed to call herself a girl?

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#104
post #32

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things witho…

The rockstar shit is a filter for me. If a company advertises itself as wanting rockstars, ninjas, "hardcore" people, or whatever brogrammer bullshit of the week is, I put that job advert to the bottom of my list. The thought of working around the sort of people who would apply because they consider themselves a hardcore ninja rockstar puts me off. (I spent more than enough time with homophobic macho fuckwits when I…

If I see a guy in a suit I think he is probably a recruiter or a PHB.

I wonder how much of the macho stuff you point out is unique to tech. I see way more aggressive posturing in sales for example, and all the sales departments I've seen are very well balanced gender-wise

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#105

I'm a young, white male, aka privileged person. I've read quite a lot about feminism (and anti-racism for that matter), and struggled to get a clear picture of when my actions are appreciated. I think the most important lesson I've learned is that I must listen; because I do not have any first hand experience.

I'm a young, white man too. Care to tell me how this makes me a privileged person?

Does this help?

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege_checklist

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#106

What he wrote was a primer.. describing the basics of what sexism is.. in fact in his terminology portion he pretty much breaks down what any gender equality book would break down, and he does so in a very concise manor. Also you MUST address rape culture when addressing sexism. Being dismissive of it is what leads to sexism. Reminds me of that kixeye manager "Let me tell you, it's ok to make jokes about slavery beca…

Rape and sexism are not the same thing.

Rape is genderless. Despite the fact that rape happens more to women, it happens to both genders.

Secondly, just because someone is sexist it doesn't correlate to whether they're rapists or not. Sexism is about ignorance, rape is about many things often anger or control.

If you mention rape any time someone says "I get paid less because I'm a girl", it sensationalizes it. It's like mentioning slavery, every time someone says "I'm only paid minimum wage"

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#107

Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either. 1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women. My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance…

Your experiences chime with my own, as another woman with just over 10 years of experience - especially the part about being afraid to ask questions. This extends to being afraid to try new tasks, take on new projects, or even just ask for critiques of my code, all of which I know are important in this line of work. Obviously these fears are not solely experienced by women, but I think there are some feedback loops which are particularly likely to lead women into this rut.

As an example, after university I discovered that when I'd been struggling alone to do my assignments and assuming all the guys were just finding it easy, all the guys were going round to each other's rooms, hanging out together, discussing work and looking at each other's code. They didn't think to invite me, possibly out of fear that I'd misinterpret it as a date or that I'd ruin the boys' club atmosphere, and I rarely asked them about work for fear of looking like I wasn't up to their level.

While it's not quite so obvious in the workplace, there's still some of that going on over lunchbreaks, after work or in impromptu meetings. And once you've been unintentionally out of that loop for so long, it's very hard to feel confident enough to ask people for a quick primer in what they're doing, because you feel like the only one who doesn't already know. Again, not intentional and by no means exclusive to women, but as a woman in a mostly-male workplace you are automatically something of an outsider and that can be hard to shake off, especially when trying to shake it off could get you labelled as "pushy", something women are generally socialised not to be.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rockstar shit is a filter for me. If a company advertises itself as wanting rockstars, ninjas, "hardcore" people, or whatever brogrammer bullshit of the week is, I put that job advert to the bottom of my list. The thought of working around the sort of people who would apply because they consider themselves a hardcore ninja rockstar puts me off. (I spent more than enough time with homophobic macho fuckwits when I…

If I see a guy in a suit I think he is probably a recruiter or a PHB. I wonder how much of the macho stuff you point out is unique to tech. I see way more aggressive posturing in sales for example, and all the sales departments I've seen are very well balanced gender-wise

Ah, it depends on context: in my mind, I was thinking about some of the user groups I go to where there's often a fair few enterprise devs who turn up in suits.

But the point stands: for a group of people who take pride in judging people on their code and skills, we seem to quite like judging people on their appearance.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#109
post #32

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things witho…

The rockstar shit is a filter for me. If a company advertises itself as wanting rockstars, ninjas, "hardcore" people, or whatever brogrammer bullshit of the week is, I put that job advert to the bottom of my list. The thought of working around the sort of people who would apply because they consider themselves a hardcore ninja rockstar puts me off. (I spent more than enough time with homophobic macho fuckwits when I…

We judge people who dress to manipulate, whether it's "trust me" or "pay attention to me". The fact that a cheap costume might influence others' decisions is a social bug, and I kind of resent anyone knowingly exploiting it.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#110
post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

Agreed. People seem to be incredibly invested in believing that intelligent people could ever be sexist.

When I've called out people over the years for being sexist or racist, often they don't even realize immediately they'd said something offensive because it usually is subtle rather than overt - off-color jokes, sexualized images or inappropriate topics.

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