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On privacy and control

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Re: On privacy and control

#91
"The problem is that the word "privacy" is dialuted[sic] and mean different things to different people. Instead of "privacy" we really should be talking about "control"."

It's arguable that without control there can be no "privacy and security", including relief from data collection, surveillance and ads. The so-called "tech" companies that profit from data collection, surveillance and ad services are going to protect their own interests first, and if the the ad target (computer user) delegates "control" to these people, then he will also sacrifice some "privacy and security" as a result. When there is a conflict between the company's interest in profiting from data collection, surveillance and ad services and his interest in "privacy", his interests will be subjugated to theirs. He has sacrificed control

Personally I'm not really interested in "convenience" at the cost of control. For example, delegating control to a third party. I want control

Like "privacy", "control" could mean different things to different people

To me, it means control over a computer (via software)

For example, let's say a student at Harvard in the 1970's later becomes a hacker at MIT's AI lab in the 80's and dislikes not having the ability to study and modify the software he is forced to use

He writes a compiler and attempts to create an operating system

Arguably one could say he wanted "control"

Or let's say a student at University of Helsinki in the early 90s is using an operating system installed on the university's computers and wants to run the same type of system (UNIX) on his i386 PC at home

He writes an operating system kernel

Arguably, one could say he too wanted "control"

Let's say a www user in 2025 dislikes using software that automatically downloads, installs and runs code on his computer without his input or consent and automatically sends DNS, HTTP and other requests to allow so-called "tech" companies to perform data collection, surveillance and ad services^1

Arguably, one could say he also wants "control"

He compiles his own operating system from source and writes some simple programs to prevent the remote access installs and intercept the attempted automatic remote requests

1. Thanks to the work of the folks in the first two examples and others like them, source code for UNIX-like OS is readily available including a free compiler to produce software for it

Perhaps "control" in this context must involve some element of "DIY". The folks in the first two examples did not wait for or plead with third parties, e.g., so-called "tech" companies, to give them "control"

If one accepts that there can be no "privacy and security" without "control", then it stands to reason that delegating control to so-called "tech" companies is not going to produce "privacy and security"; it will always be compromised by the companies' own interests which include profiting from data collection, surveillance and ads services at the expense of "privacy and security"

Re: On privacy and control

#92
"I don't need to care about privacy because I have nothing to hide."

One counter is "since I've done nothing wrong, you have not need to care about what I hide". Both make assumptions, the difference is about who is trusted. Why should it be the authorities.

Re: On privacy and control

#93

As much as I'd love to daily drive an OS like GrapheneOS, the risk of running into apps that use Google Integrity API thereby making it impossible to run those apps on Graphene is too much of an inconvenience. I took a look at this curated list of bank apps[1] supported on Graphene OS and I'm glad that a large majority of them work on Graphene. However, just my luck that one of the banks I use on this list isn't supp…

> As much as I'd love to daily drive an OS like GrapheneOS The Play Integrity shenanigans is mostly on app developers. That said, good thing GrapheneOS will launch its own Android phone: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/27687-new-manufacturer-theo... / https://piunikaweb.com/2025/10/13/grapheneos-ending-pixel-ex... / https://www.androidauthority.com/grapheneos-phone-wait-or-bu... Provided GrapheneOS is cleared by Goo…

It's not their own phone. It's an OEM phone that will be supported by GrapheneOS by flashing it. Once you do it, there's no reason to believe it wont have the same play integrity issues that it currently has on pixel devices.

Re: On privacy and control

#94

As much as I'd love to daily drive an OS like GrapheneOS, the risk of running into apps that use Google Integrity API thereby making it impossible to run those apps on Graphene is too much of an inconvenience. I took a look at this curated list of bank apps[1] supported on Graphene OS and I'm glad that a large majority of them work on Graphene. However, just my luck that one of the banks I use on this list isn't supp…

We shouldn't install apps that use the Google Play Integrity or are closed-source in the first place. That's what I do.

The issues with GrapheneOS for me are:

1. They don't support rooting the OS. This is such a basic requirement for me. Why would I use an OS that doesn't let me do anything and everything with it?

2. They only support Google Pixel phones that don't have kill switches for the microphone, camera, radio and so on, as far as I know. GrapheneOS may be very secure, but nothing is 100% secure. Except cutting power to the mic. I'd be fine with physically removing the accelerometer and other sensors that can act as mics, even the mic itself. But newer phones are a bitch to open and close as they use glue instead of screws.

So right now I'm waiting for a Linux phone that's priced normally. I tried the PinePhone a couple of years ago, but it was an awful experience. Hopefully something comes soon. If not - I'll use my dumb phone.

Re: On privacy and control

#95
post #77
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're blowing this entirely out of proportion. The vast vast majority of apps work without issue with sandboxed play services. Yes it's less plug and play than a stock os. No it's not a life-ending inconvenience.

Just looked - Microsoft Authenticator doesn't appear to work. I might be able to get off of it but it will take some prep. My banks are supported so that's good.

[deleted]

Re: On privacy and control

#96
post #77
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're blowing this entirely out of proportion. The vast vast majority of apps work without issue with sandboxed play services. Yes it's less plug and play than a stock os. No it's not a life-ending inconvenience.

Just looked - Microsoft Authenticator doesn't appear to work. I might be able to get off of it but it will take some prep. My banks are supported so that's good.

Microsoft authenticator should work on GOS, I can only find single person saying it doesn't but there's plenty of reasons it might not work for them (vpn, too strict exploit protection settings). And there's multiple people mentioning it working fine.

Re: On privacy and control

#97

As much as I'd love to daily drive an OS like GrapheneOS, the risk of running into apps that use Google Integrity API thereby making it impossible to run those apps on Graphene is too much of an inconvenience. I took a look at this curated list of bank apps[1] supported on Graphene OS and I'm glad that a large majority of them work on Graphene. However, just my luck that one of the banks I use on this list isn't supp…

We shouldn't install apps that use the Google Play Integrity or are closed-source in the first place. That's what I do. The issues with GrapheneOS for me are: 1. They don't support rooting the OS. This is such a basic requirement for me. Why would I use an OS that doesn't let me do anything and everything with it? 2. They only support Google Pixel phones that don't have kill switches for the microphone, camera, radio…

1. It's not possible to root GrapheneOS or any Android-based OS and preserve the Android security model. That would run entirely counter to the goal of the GOS. It can be done but shouldn't.

2. They have implemented kill switches for these on the software level. Afaik there's nothing up dispute these working just as well as hardware switches assuming proper verified install of GOS.

Re: On privacy and control

#98
post #63

Surprised to see Firefox. Gave it up a while ago, for: Librefox on the linux device. Waterfox on the android device. Orion on the APP£ device.

> Librefox on the linux device. Librefox hasn't been updated since 2019: https://github.com/intika/Librefox/commits/master

They must have meant LibreWolf.

I've used it as a 2nd browser for past 2 years although on Speedometer benchmark it constantly gets a much lower score than Firefox. You can feel LibreWolf slower it on heavy sites like YouTube.

https://browserbench.org/Speedometer3.1/

I also notice Chromium browsers get lower score than official Chrome binary. Apparently Google make further modifications to Chromium before compiling (that they don't make public).

Re: On privacy and control

#99

This topic came up at Christmas dinner with family. I had no luck coming up with a reason why they should care. "Control" would not be a better argument with them. Everything is already controlled. What amazon, google, youtube, facebook, instagram, tiktok, netflix, spotify, recommend to you is all controlled. Various insurance (health, car, etc) is relatively controlled. Through an employeer you usually get health in…

Control is the other end of freedom. Do they hate freedom? ;-) People often say they have nothing to hide, but they don’t get to decide, the powers that be will make that determination. Law enforcement, civil judgements, corporate penalties, etc. Everyone breaks some rules. For example, Ford knows you’re speeding while GM sells that info to your insurance company.

That example of Ford knownig you're speeding wouldn't change their mind. In fact I'm not sure it I have a problem with it. You already need a license to drive. Given how bad drivers are getting I actually feel like I wish all cars were tracked and tickets given out. Bad driving risks other people's lives.

On the other hand, it's likely the traffic violations will go down as self driving car usage increased. Though of course, that will increase the surveillance

Re: On privacy and control

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't install apps that use the Google Play Integrity or are closed-source in the first place. That's what I do. The issues with GrapheneOS for me are: 1. They don't support rooting the OS. This is such a basic requirement for me. Why would I use an OS that doesn't let me do anything and everything with it? 2. They only support Google Pixel phones that don't have kill switches for the microphone, camera, radio…

1. It's not possible to root GrapheneOS or any Android-based OS and preserve the Android security model. That would run entirely counter to the goal of the GOS. It can be done but shouldn't. 2. They have implemented kill switches for these on the software level. Afaik there's nothing up dispute these working just as well as hardware switches assuming proper verified install of GOS.

1. I've read that rooting breaks Android's security model, but I have yet to find a detailed explanation of how it actually lowers Android's security, especially compared to desktop OSes that are usually rooted, like Linux or MacOS.

2. Software kill switches are prone to software attacks, aren't they? They can't be as secure as hardware kill switches unless we can prove the software kill switches can't be attacked by software. I doubt anyone can prove this.

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