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Non-Zero-Sum Games

nonzerosum.games

111–120 of 218 posts

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#111

The article on "effortocracy"[1] is pretty very well done. Quoting the end of the article: "... if you take anything away from this, it is to recognise that if meritocracy is based on achievement only, then we must be sure not to confuse it with effortocracy when it comes to its moral weight." Related reading: The Tyranny of Merit , by Michael Sandel (I was hoping the article would reference this, and it does.) [1] h…

I don't think we actually want an effortocracy. Why should we aim to reward pointless, Sisyphean tasks at the expense of actual achievement? There's no inherent moral worth to futile effort that doesn't actually yield any reward, regardless of how laborious it might be.

To strong-man their argument, they don't seem to be arguing to reward effort only, in their words:

> "To truly measure and reward by an effortocratic measure we need both a top-down and bottom-up approach

- At the top, reward people who have overcome more to get to the same point

- At the bottom, level the playing field so that potential, wherever it is, can be realised"

The way I think of it is using a vector analogy. They're arguing that a meritocracy only reward the end point, and that instead we should value both the magnitude of the vector in addition to its end point. You're interpreting effortocracy (not unfairly IMO) as only rewarding the magnitude of the vector, which is indeed absurd.

In my opinion however, they themselves are straw-manning what they point to as "moral meritocracy". As I understand it, their main gripe is that achievements are not only rewarded, but also ascribed higher moral weight, which is plain false. People vastly prefer rag-to-riches story to born-rich ones. So much so that you have many rich people straight up lying about their origin stories to make it sound more rag-to-riches than it is.

Edit: removed last bit that was harsher than intended.

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm replying without having read the entirety of the text you've referred to by Proudhon, but it looks interesting—thanks. Some raw thoughts of mine if I may (feel free to add seasoning): You mention that capitalism is definitionally zero-sum, and you seem to be facing quite a bit of resistance. I've had similar thoughts (perhaps still premature) that capitalism is zero-sum, but only (?) under a strong definition of…

It’s definitely not specific to the context of capitalism

capitalism however makes transactionalism the explicit structure such that it cannot coexist with any other type of ownership regime by function

That is to say, if you look at anarcho socialist philosophy it can theoretically coexist with other philosophies inside the same state and action space

Historically however, we have not found a stable equilibrium for the lived reality of our experience such that we could map it cleanly onto some discreet and identified philosophical framework

So neither anarcho-socialism nor capitalism is a sustainable equilibrium point due to the constraints of a human biological substrate

Claiming that “it could” or “can” or “is the best we can do” are all beside the point, because they ignore the intractable fundamental fact of separating human systems from all other systems

Every possible game is zero sum because the universe isn’t creating more matter or energy, it’s just moving around. How we move it around is the problem to solve and anyone using weak justifications with bankrupt epistemological foundations is just wasting everyone’s time.

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those resources are already redistributed (from a distribution that somewhat aligns with demographics) with things like personal relationships (think legacy admissions or a father's buddy handshake internship). AA is meant to correct historical instances of this which snowball into familial / generational wealth and (most difficult to diffuse) social capital that was distributed unfairly. That's the argument for…

>AA is meant to correct historical instances of this which snowball into familial / generational wealth and (most difficult to diffuse) social capital that was distributed unfairly. If that was the case it would be based on family wealth/income.

Social capital is not measured in family wealth / income, but it can very easily translate into jobs and other valuable things (like when your father knows someone who can get you an interview)

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#114

The article on "effortocracy"[1] is pretty very well done. Quoting the end of the article: "... if you take anything away from this, it is to recognise that if meritocracy is based on achievement only, then we must be sure not to confuse it with effortocracy when it comes to its moral weight." Related reading: The Tyranny of Merit , by Michael Sandel (I was hoping the article would reference this, and it does.) [1] h…

Well, i would say that there are two common fallacies w.r.t. meritocracy:

1) Mixing up merit (ability to provide achievement) with effort.

2) Assuming it has anything to do with moral weight. While it primarily targets just decision making and distribution of deserts (rewards).

Why distribution of deserts should be meritocratic? Because that ensure that collaboration is positive-sum for everybody involved. Considering this, fair reward for participation in some group effort has to satisfy a condition that reward is at least as large as a missed opportunity (of collaborating in some other group, individually, or not collaborating at all).

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#115
post #98
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends, there were a lot of studies that showed prejudice and bias in the meritocratic process. You had examples of CVs with woman names removed getting more callbacks, and anonymous interviews having higher rates of hire and such. Due to this, people considered affirmative actions to correct for this skew. That would actually make it a meritocratic motivated AA. And then you have the idea of missed potential. Th…

You are stawmanning. You are attempting to say what they think meritocracy is - and your basing your thoughts on your own stereotypes. > You had examples of CVs with woman names removed getting more callbacks That is not meritocracy.

But that's what we live in. We can't force meritocracy on people when they have the ability to accept and reject candidates in a biased way

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By pillaging and conquering nations that have abundant resources through violence and coercion Like this is the entire history of capitalism and it’s not even close the fact that other organizations (USSR, China) do the same thing (horde property and then use consolidated resources to enforce economic heirarchy) but don’t call it capitalism doesn’t make it any less true They can say “communism” all day but if the fun…

The hording and eliteness is not a property of the capitalistic system. It might be an unwanted side effect. Imperialism, greed, urge to expand control, subordination of others are unfortunately human traits. You might attribute that behavior to any system, why single out capitalism?

Because capitalism explicitly encodes transactionalism into the social structure by alienating labor from the fruits of the labor.

There’s no period of time where that has not been true for some portion is society, but we reached a point to which there are no places where that is not true.

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And many against affirmative action will agree that there have been massive historical injustices for certain demographics that have lingering effects. The difference between these two sides is which value they prioritize.

>The difference between these two sides is which value they prioritize. Yup. Though there is a third option: completely ignore the meritocracy vs. equity zero-sum game and simply argue that demographic-based weighting of applicants is an ineffective way to rectify those historical injustices. It is treating a symptom, not the underlying disease.

> simply argue that demographic-based weighting of applicants is an ineffective way to rectify those historical injustices. It is treating a symptom, not the underlying disease.

Is there any effective way to rectify them or the underlying disease that you'd recommend?

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#118
One thing I have always thought was missing in game theory (and it is probably there but I just haven't looked hard enough) is a mathematical framework for how to build trust to increase the infinite payout for everyone. If in the decision making the idea of an offering is added in then it brings up the possibility of gauging trust and building trust so that future actions can capture more value until an optimal infinite policy is attained. So, for instance, I look at all my possible options and I choose one based on how much I trust the other party AND how much I want to increase that trust in the future. So I give them an offering, select an option that gives them a little more but at a cost to me, to prove that I am willing to increase trust. If they reciprocate then I loose nothing and the next offering can be bigger. If they don't then I gained knowledge and my next offering is smaller. Basically, this is like tit for tat but over time and intended to get to the optimal solution instead of the min max solution. Clearly I'm not a mathematician, but I bet this could be refined to exact equations and formalized so that exact offerings could be calculated.

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#119
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read about Baumol cost disease if you want to understand why what you just said is totally misguided https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect If I pay somebody to dig a ditch and I pay somebody else to fill it in was something of value created? Unequivocally no. Whether or not that allowed somebody to survive and feed their family is entirely orthogonal to the question of the zero-sum nature of the univ…

Let's stop at the first half. If I pay somebody to dig a ditch. Period. End of story. Let's assume I'm not clinically insane and I actually needed that ditch for something. Is the sum still zero? Just because pointless things are possible doesn't mean not pointless things are not possible. Nothing is free, but the service isn't free either. It's not free because people find it valuable, so valuable they're willing to…

You’re describing positive-sum outcomes in subjective preference space.

I’m describing conservation laws in physical state space.

Preference gains don’t violate thermodynamics, but they also don’t escape zero-sum reality once you include energy, ecology, and time.

You’re doing what I’m complaining about separating Economics from ecology - there’s a very firm reason why climate changes the most important topic of our decade is because we have to merge our lived experience with the work experience and kill this embedded dualism that somehow human environments are different than the rest of the universe.

It’s like you’re trying to do control theory without energy constraints.

Re: Non-Zero-Sum Games

#120
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it does? What do you think it optimizes other than individual fitness? I think I understand the GP pretty well. Cheating, or defection in the language of evolutionary theory, is subject to frequency based selection, meaning it is strongly selected against if its frequency is too high in the population. It's not a stable strategy. It can be a winning strategy for a few individuals in a cooperative environment, yes…

>What do you think it optimizes other than individual fitness? Chance to pass genes forward. This is only equivalent to individual fitness for very solitary species and humans aren't. As an extreme example, take soldier termites - their chance to pass their genes is zero, but the chance for the colony to survive grows. Also gay people exist (they also - usually - don't reproduce, but help others instead). Humans natu…

That's a distinction without a difference. Worker ants have high individual fitness if their colony successfully reproduces because they pass their genes forward.

In evolutionary theory this is made clear by using the term "inclusive fitness" - worker ants actually pass their genes on to future generations more effectively by taking the detour, if you will, through the queen.

If you want to be nitpicky and argue we should consider the individual gene the unit of selection, as Dawkins famously argued, I'm not going to disagree, you can see it that way too.

That specific distinction very rarely leads to different predictions though.

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