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Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

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Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#561
post #550
post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what your argument is. It seems to be "people keep saying the models are good"? That's true. They are. And the reason people keep saying it is because the frontier of what they do keeps getting pushed back. Actual, working, useful code completion in the GPT 4 days? Amazing ! It could automatically write entire functions for me ! The ability to write whole classes and utility programs in the Claude…

> And now, with Opus 4.5 or Codex Max or Gemini 3 Pro we can write substantial programs one-shot from a single prompt and they work. Amazing! People have been doing this parlor trick with various "substantial" programs [1] since GPT 3. And no, the models aren't better today, unless you're talking about being better at the same kinds of programs. [1] If I have to see one more half-baked demo of a running game or a fli…

"And no, the models aren't better today"

Can you expand on that? It doesn't match my experience at all.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#562
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well. I was a sceptic for a long time, but a friend recently convinced me to try Claude Code and showed me around. I revived an open source project I regularly get back to, code for a bit, have to wrestle with toil and dependency updates, and loose the joy before I really get a lot done, so I stop again. With Claude, all it took to fix all of that drudge was a single sentence. In the last two weeks, I implemented sev…

This sounds to me like a lack of resource management, as tasks that junior developers might perform don't match your skills, and are thus boring. As a creator of an open-source platform myself, I find trusting a semi-random word generator in front of users unreliable. Moreover, I believe it creates a bad habit. I've seen developers forget how to read documentation and instead trust AI, and of course, as a result AI m…

> a semi-random word generator

Calling tools like Claude Code a "semi-random word generator" is certainly a choice, and I suspect it won't age well.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#563
post #92

I have been using Copilot, Cursor, then CC for a little more than a year now. I have written code with teams using these tools and I am writing mostly for myself now. My observations have been the following: 1) These tools obviously improved significantly over the past 12 months. They can churn out code that makes sense in the context of the codebase, meaning there is more grounding to the codebase they are working o…

I want to say, that your comment has been the most real, aligned thing I've read in this post's comments. The articulation of what I've also seen and felt is perfect. Whoever else passes by, THIS, is the truth. What dnw has written is the honest-to-god state of things and that it does not rob you of the passion of creating.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#564
post #164
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a professional engineer with around 10 years of experience and I use AI to work about 5x faster on a site I personally maintain (~100 DAU, so not huge, but also not nothing). I don’t work in AI so I get no financial benefit by “reinforcing this meme”.

Oh, well if it can generate some simple code for your personal website, surely it can also be the "next level of abstraction" for the entirety of software engineering.

> on a site I personally maintain (~100 DAU, so not huge, but also not nothing)

This is what the parent said.

> some simple code for your personal website

This is your (reductive) characterization of their work. That's fine, but please keep in mind that that's your inference, not what the parent said.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#565
post #559

I think this is mostly a frontend sentiment. In the backend, we're mostly just pushing data around from one place to another. Not much changes, there's only a few ways to really do that. Your data structures change, but ultimately the work is the same. You don't even really need an LLM at all, or super complex frameworks and ORMs, etc.

Sounds like you'd use an LLM exactly for that. We don't need you.

Why pay for LLM when you can just do it easily for free?

The end goal is to get rid of all frontends anyway, just have apps that you interact with through LLM prompts. A more advanced command line.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#566
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a professional engineer with around 10 years of experience and I use AI to work about 5x faster on a site I personally maintain (~100 DAU, so not huge, but also not nothing). I don’t work in AI so I get no financial benefit by “reinforcing this meme”.

> either not generally fluent in programming or stand to benefit financially from reinforcing this meme Then figure out which one of the two you are. Years of experience have never equated competence.

Blindly asserting that everyone who disagrees with you is a shill or incompetent seems unlikely to be conducive to good discourse.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#567
post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the applications you mention could be scoped as beginner projects. I don't think they represent good proofs of capability.

Well why don't you look at it for yourself and tell me if this looks like a beginner project https://youtu.be/EyE5BrUut2o

Yes, this does look like a beginner project & exactly what i expected from someone who doesn't write code.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#568
post #561
post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now, with Opus 4.5 or Codex Max or Gemini 3 Pro we can write substantial programs one-shot from a single prompt and they work. Amazing! People have been doing this parlor trick with various "substantial" programs [1] since GPT 3. And no, the models aren't better today, unless you're talking about being better at the same kinds of programs. [1] If I have to see one more half-baked demo of a running game or a fli…

"And no, the models aren't better today" Can you expand on that? It doesn't match my experience at all.

It’s a vague statement that I obviously cannot defend in all interpretations, but what I mean is: the performance of models at making non-trivial applications end-to-end, today, is not practically better than it was a few years ago. They’re (probably) better at making toys or one-shotting simple stuff, and they can definitely (sometimes) crank out shitty code for bigger apps that “works”, but they’re just as terrible as ever if you actually understand what quality looks like and care to keep your code from descending into entropy.

I think "substantial" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the sentence I quoted. For example, I’m not going to argue that aspects of the process haven’t improved, or that Claude 4.5 isn't better than GPT 4 at coding, but I still can’t trust any of the things to work on any modestly complex codebase without close supervision, and that is what I understood the broad argument to be about. It's completely irrelevant to me if they slay the benchmarks or make killer one-shot N-body demos, and it's marginally relevant that they have better context windows or now hallucinate 10% less often (in that they're more useful as tools, which I don't dispute at all), but if you want to claim that they're suddenly super-capable robot engineers that I can throw at any "substantial" problem, you have to bring evidence, because that's a claim that defies my day-to-day experience. They're just constantly so full of shit, and that hasn't changed, at all.

FWIW, this line of argument usually turns into a mott and bailey fallacy, where someone makes an outrageous claim (e.g. "models have recently gained the ability to operate independently as a senior engineer!"), and when challenged on the hyperbole, retreats to a more reasonable position ("Claude 4.5 is clearly better than GPT 3!"), but with the speculative caveat that "we don't know where things will be in N years". I'm not interested in that kind of speculation.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's my view too. It's definitely fine to wait a couple of years (at least), and see what emerged as most effective and then just learn that, instead of dumping a ton of time now into keeping up with the hamster wheel. Unless you're in web dev because it seems like that's one of the few domains where AI actually works pretty well today.

Or if you like learning new stuff. Personally that has been best part of being programmer.

I love learning new stuff, but for whatever reason the AI stuff doesn’t interest me. So I learn other stuff, only so much time in the day.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no point arguing with someone who's not only wrong, but who doesn't care if they're wrong. ("I will not be able to produce anything even remotely comparable in terms of negative impact that AI brings to humanity these days.") There are basically no conditions under which one party can or will reach a legitimate common ground with the other. Sucks, but that's HN nowadays.

There is common ground, as per my initial message. Only one AI company spends billions of dollars yearly on marketing their software to make it work. I work on open-source software development on a bootstrapped basis. My input is: water, nutrition, a bit of electricity, and beliefs and the output is a fairly complex logical system like software. AI's input is billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of people's liv…

To answer your question in other words: if you spent the same amount of resources on human intelligence

If AI tools don't amplify and magnify your own intelligence, it's not their fault.

If the advances turn out to be illusory, on the other hand, they'll be unwound soon enough. We generally don't stick with expensive technology that doesn't work. At the same time, fortunately, we also don't generally wait for your approval before trying new things.

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