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Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

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Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's concerning to many of us is that you've (and others) have said this same thing s/Opus 4.5/some other model/ That feels more like chasing than a clear line of improvement. It's interrupted very different from something like "my habits have changed quite a bit since reading The Art of Computer Programming". They're categorically different.

It's because the models keep getting better! What you could do with GPT-4 was more impressive than what you could do with GPT 3.5. What you could do with Sonnet 3.5 was more impressive yet, and Sonnet 4, and Sonnet 4.5. Some of these improvements have been minor, some of them have been big enough to feel like step changes. Sonnet 3.7 + Claude Code (they came out at the same time) was a big step change; Opus 4.5 simil…

Models keep getting better but the argument I'm critiquing stays the same.

So does the comment I critiqued in the sibling comment to yours. I don't know why it's so hard to believe we just haven't tried. I have a Claude subscription. I'm an ML researcher myself. Trust me, I do try.

But that last part also makes me keenly aware of their limitations and failures. Frankly I don't trust experts who aren't critiquing their field. Leave the selling points to the marketing team. The engineer and researcher's job is to be critical. To find problems. I mean how the hell do you solve problems if you're unable to identify them lol. Let the marketing team lead development direction instead? Sounds like a bad way to solve problems

  > benchmark shows huge improvements
Benchmarks are often difficult to interpret. It is really problematic that they got incorporated into marketing. If you don't understand what a benchmark measures, and more importantly, what it doesn't measure, then I promise you that you're misunderstanding what those numbers mean.

For METR I think they say a lot right here (emphasis my own) that reinforces my point

  > Current frontier AIs are vastly better than humans at text prediction and knowledge tasks. They outperform experts on most *exam-style problems* for a fraction of the cost. ... And yet the best AI agents are not currently able to carry out substantive projects by themselves or directly substitute for human labor. *They are unable to reliably handle even relatively low-skill*, computer-based work like remote executive assistance. It is clear that capabilities are increasing very rapidly in some sense, but it is unclear how this corresponds to real-world impact.
So make sure you're really careful to understand what is being measured. What improvement actually means. To understand the bounds.

It's great that they include longer tasks but also notice the biases and distribution in the human workers. This is important in properly evaluating.

Also remember what exactly I quoted. For a long time we've all known that being good at leetcode doesn't make one a good engineer. But it's an easy thing to test and the test correlates with other skills that are likely to be learned to be good at those tests (despite being able to metric hack). We're talking about massive compression machines. That pattern match. Pattern matching tends to get much more difficult as task time increases but this is not a necessary condition.

Treat every benchmark adversarialy. If you can't figure out how to metric hack it then you don't know what a benchmark is measuring (and just because you know what can hack it doesn't mean you understand it nor that that's what is being measured)

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#502
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more output for less $$ That's a trap: it's not obvious for those without experience in both business and engineering on how to estimate or later calculate this $$. The trap is in the cost of changes and fix budget when things will break. And things will break. Often. Also, the requirements will change often, that's normal (our world is not static). So the cost has some tendency to change (guess which direction). T…

Predicting costs may be tricky, but measuring them after the fact it's a fair bit easier.

Without prediction is like landing B787 totally blind without any instrumental or visual.

It will not just hurt, it will kill a business.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#504
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fundamental misunderstanding The role of abstractions *IS* to prevent (eg "compress") the need for a test suite, because you have an easy model to understand and reason about

One of my personal rules for automated test suites is that my tests should fail if one of the libraries I'm using changes in a way that breaks my features. Makes upgrading dependencies so much less painful!

Of course, but this is largely unmaintainable, shifting the responsibility of correctness check from libraries to users. That's why we modularize/abstract/simplify, in order to minimize the need for actual checks

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, for myself as a middle-aged software engineer, it feels a little like the last chopper out of Saigon. I feel less and less confident that I can make as good a living in software for the next decade as I have for the last couple. Or if I want to. The job is changing so fast right now, and I’m not sure I like it. When I worked in big tech, I preferred being an IC over an EM or tech lead because I like writing code.…

You'll make more money than ever cleaning up AI generated messes.

I greatly respect your opinions here but I really doubt that would ever happen.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#508

The only time I've felt this much behind was in high school when everyone was talking about how much sex they were having. AI code is the Canadian girlfriend of programming.

Time to shell out the $200 my friend.

You need a lot more money than $200 if your code base is more than 100,000 lines.

If only more people understood what quadratic attention means in the real world.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#509

I feel like many people in the comments aren't aware that Karpathy is an ML scientist for whom programming is a complementary skill, not a profession. The only reason he came up with "vibe coding" is because maximum complexity of his hobby projects made it seem believable. Maybe take his opinions about fate of programming with a grain of salt. He is brilliant no doubt, but not in that field.

He's a pretty decent programmer.

It's interesting that some months ago when his nanochat project came out the HN Anti-AI crowd celebrated him saying "I tried to use claude/codex agents a few times but they just didn't work well enough at all and net unhelpful, possibly the repo is too far off the data distribution"

But now it is working for him he's suddenly not an expert...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45573521

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, for myself as a middle-aged software engineer, it feels a little like the last chopper out of Saigon. I feel less and less confident that I can make as good a living in software for the next decade as I have for the last couple. Or if I want to. The job is changing so fast right now, and I’m not sure I like it. When I worked in big tech, I preferred being an IC over an EM or tech lead because I like writing code.…

You'll make more money than ever cleaning up AI generated messes.

I had few projects like that this year and I can say it how messy and demotivating its to cleaning up mess.

And its actually not well paid because client now has the expectation that mostly everything is now done, you have to just only fix few things and you even have AI at your disposal so expect that you just write a better magic prompt.

I think actually often its faster and cheaper to start from scratch or at least rewrite whole module (of course still with AI with just better vibe engineering rather than vibe coding).

It's similar with house renovation - often its just cheaper and faster to tear whole building down rather than fixing it.

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