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Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

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Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#411
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think AI-assisted programming may be having the opposite effect, at least for me. I'm now incentivized to use less abstractions. Why do we code with React? It's because synchronizing state between a UI and a data model is difficult and it's easy to make mistakes, so it's worth paying the React complexity/page-weight tax in order for a "better developer experience" that allows us to build working, reliable software…

> If an LLM is typing that code - and it can maintain a test suite that shows everything works correctly - maybe we don't need that abstraction after all. I've had plenty of junior devs justify massive code bases of random scripts and 100+ line functions with the same logic. There's a reason senior devs almost always push back on this when it's encountered. Everything hinges on that "if". But you're baking a tautolog…

Rather, the problem more often I see with junior devs is pulling in a dozen dependencies when writing a single function would have done the job.

Indeed, part of becoming a senior developer is learning why you should avoid left-pad but accept date-fns.

We’re still in the early stages of operationalising LLMs. This is like mobile apps in 2010 or SPA web dev in 2014. People are throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and there’s going be a ton of churn and chaos before we figure out how to use it and it settles down a bit. I used to joke that I didn’t like taking vacations because the entire front end stack will have been chucked out and replaced with something new by the time I get back, but it’s pretty stable now.

Also I find it odd you’d characterise the current LLM progress as somehow being below where we hoped it would be. A few years back, people would have said you were absolutely nuts if you’d have predicted how good these models would become. Very few people (apart from those trying to sell you something) were exclaiming we’d be imminently entering a world where you enter an idea and out comes a complex solution without any further guidance or refining. When the AI can do that, we can just tell it to improve itself in a loop and AGI is just some GPU cycles away. Most people still expect - and hope - that’s a little way off yet.

That doesn’t mean the relative cost of abstracting and inlining hasn’t changed dramatically or that these tools aren’t incredibly useful when you figure out how to hold them.

Or you could just do what most people always do and wait for the trailblazers to either get burnt or figure out what works, and then jump on the bandwagon when it stabilises - but accept that when it does stabilise, you’ll be a few years behind those who have been picking shrapnel out of their hands for the last few years.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our ops guy has thrown together several buggy dashboards using AI tools. They're passable but impossible to maintain.

I personally think that everyone knows AI produces subpar code, and that the infallible humans are just passing it along because they don't understand/care. We're starting to see the gaslighting now, it's not that AI makes you better, it's that AI makes you ship faster, and now shipping faster (with more bugs) is more important because "tech debt is an appreciating asset" in the world where AI tools can pump out feat…

Yep, bugs are already just another cost of doing business for companies that aren’t user-focused. We can expect buggier code from now on. Especially for software where the users aren’t the ones buying it.

Disclaimer because I sound pessimistic: I do use a lot of AI to write code.

I do feel behind on the usage of it.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

React is hundreds of thousands of lines of code (or millions - I haven’t looked in awhile). Sure, you can start by having the LLM create a simple way to sync state across components, but in a serious project you’re going to run into edge-cases that cause the complexity of your LLM-built library to keep growing. There may come a point at which the complexity grows to such a point that the LLM itself can’t maintain the…

Not all UIs converge to a React like requirement. For a lot of use cases React is over-engineering but the profession just lacks the balls to use something simpler, like htmx for example.

Sure, and for those cases I’d rather tell the agent to use htmx instead of something hand-rolled.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#414

Wow - can we coin "Slopbrain" for people who are so far gone into AI eventualism that they can no longer function? Liked "cooked" but "slopped" or something. Good grief lol. Talk about getting lost in the sauce...

WSJ has been writing increasingly about "AI Psychosis" (here's their most recent piece [0]). I'm increasingly seeing that this is the real threat of AI. I've personally known people who have started to strain relationships with friends and family because they sincerely believe they are evolving into something new. While not as dramatic, the normalization of the use of "AI as therapist" is equally concerning. I know t…

I would really like to hear more about these acquaintances who think they are evolving.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#415

Andrej is 39 years old, according to Wikipedia. Douglas Adams on age and relating to technology: "1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. 2. Anything that’s invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. 3. Anything invented after you’re thirty-fi…

This is pretty much the thinking across all German-speaking countries. It especially applies to anything related to energy (combustion engines, coal, gas, oil) and IT.

Case in point: fax machines are still an important part of business communication in Germany, and many IT projects are genuinely amateurish garbage — because the underlying mindset is "everything should stay exactly as it is."

This is particularly visible in the 45+ generation. It mostly doesn't apply to programmers, since they tend to find new things interesting. But in the rest of society, the effects are painful to watch: if nothing changes, nothing improves.

And then there's mobile infrastructure. It's not even a technical problem — it's purely political. The networks simply don't get expanded. It's honestly embarrassing how far behind Germany is compared to the rest of Europe.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#416

Andrej is 39 years old, according to Wikipedia. Douglas Adams on age and relating to technology: "1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. 2. Anything that’s invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. 3. Anything invented after you’re thirty-fi…

You didn't really read what he wrote or think about it and just took it as an opportunity to dismiss him as old. He was just being humble. It's relatively new to everyone. At least you are honest about your ageism.

I am sure Karparthy can and does everage AI as well or better than you. Probably I do also and I am 48.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#417
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My habits have changed quite a bit with Opus 4.5 in the past month. I need to write about it..

What's concerning to many of us is that you've (and others) have said this same thing s/Opus 4.5/some other model/ That feels more like chasing than a clear line of improvement. It's interrupted very different from something like "my habits have changed quite a bit since reading The Art of Computer Programming". They're categorically different.

Opus 4.5 is categorically a much better model from benchmarks and personal experience than Opus 4.1 & Sonnet models. The reason you're seeing a lot of people wax about O4.5 is that it was a real step change in reliable performance. It crossed for me a critical threshold in being able to solve problems by approaching things in systematic ways.

Why do you use the word "chasing" to describe this? I don't understand. Maybe you should try it and compare it to earlier models to see what people mean.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#418
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My habits have changed quite a bit with Opus 4.5 in the past month. I need to write about it..

Can you expound on Opus 4.5 a little? Is it so good that it's basically a superpower now? How does it differ from your previous LLM usage?

To repeat my other comment:

> Opus 4.5 is categorically a much better model from benchmarks and personal experience than Opus 4.1 & Sonnet models. The reason you're seeing a lot of people wax about O4.5 is that it was a real step change in reliable performance. It crossed for me a critical threshold in being able to solve problems by approaching things in systematic ways.

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#419
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... or how it's supposed to make any programmer worth their weight in salt 10x better. It doesn't. The only people I've seen claim such speedups are either not generally fluent in programming or stand to benefit financially from reinforcing this meme.

I am a professional engineer with around 10 years of experience and I use AI to work about 5x faster on a site I personally maintain (~100 DAU, so not huge, but also not nothing). I don’t work in AI so I get no financial benefit by “reinforcing this meme”.

[deleted]

Re: Karpathy on Programming: “I've never felt this much behind”

#420
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it should, normally, because "we'll rewrite it in React later" used to represent weeks if not months of massively disruptive work. I've seen migration projects like that push on for more than a year! The new normal isn't like that. Rewrite an existing cleanly implemented Vanilla JavaScript project (with tests) in React the kind of rote task you can throw at a coding agent like Claude Code and come back the next mo…

And everyone else's work has to be completely put on hold or thrown away because you did the whole thing all at once on your own. That's definitely not something that goes over well on anything other than an incredibly trivial project.

Why did you jump to the assumption that this:

> The new normal isn't like that. Rewrite an existing cleanly implemented Vanilla JavaScript project (with tests) in React the kind of rote task you can throw at a coding agent like Claude Code and come back the next morning and expect most (and occasionally all) of the work to be done.

... meant that person would do it in a clandestine fashion rather than this be an agreed upon task prior? Is this how you operate?

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