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The future of software development is software developers

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Re: The future of software development is software developers

#21

Post by heliumtera »

mohsen1 wrote: post #3

I really really want this to be true. I want to be relevant. I don’t know what to do if all those predictions are true and there is no need (or very little need) for programmers anymore. But something tells me “this time is different” is different this time for real. Coding AIs design software better than me, review code better than me, find hard-to-find bugs better than me, plan long-running projects better than me,…

Stop freaking out. Seriously. You're afraid of something completely ridiculous.

It is certainly more eloquent than you regarding software architecture (which was a scam all along, but conversation for another time). It will find SOME bugs better than you, that's a given.

Review code better than you? Seriously? What you're using and what you consider code review? Assume I could identify one change broke production and you reviewed the latest commit. I am pinging you and you better answer. Ok, Claude broke production, now what? Can you begin to understand the difference between you and the generative technology? When you hop on the call, you will explain to me with a great deal of details what you know about the system you built, and explain decision making and changes over time. You'll tell about what worked and what didn't. You will tell about the risks, behavior and expectations. About where the code runs, it's dependencies, users, usage patterns, load, CPU usage and memory footprint, you could probably tell what's happening without looking at logs but at metrics. With Claude I get: you're absolutely right! You asked about what it WAS, but I told you about what it WASN'T! MY BAD.

Knowledge requires a soul to experience and this is why you're paid.

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#22

Post by skydhash »

memoriuaysj wrote: post #15
treespace8 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using Claude code to help me learn Godot game programming. One interesting thing is that Claude will not tell me if I'm following the wrong path. It will just make the requested change to the best of its ability. For example a Tower Defence game I'm making I wanted to keep turret position state in an AStarGrid2D. It produced code to do this, but became harder and harder to follow as I went on. It's only after wat…

before coding I just ask the model "what are the best practices in this industry to solve this problem? what tools/libraries/approaches people use? after coding I ask it "review the code, do you see any for which there are common libraries implementing it? are there ways to make it more idiomatic?" you can also ask it "this is an idea on how to solve it that somebody told me, what do you think about it, are there bet…

Do you also light candles and chant?

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#23

Post by 9dev »

berdon wrote: post #10

There is a guaranteed cap on how far LLM based AI models can go. Models improve by being trained on better data. LLMs being used to generate millions of lines of sloppy code will substantially dilute the pool of good training data. Developers moving over to AI based development will cease to grow and learn - producing less novel code. The massive increase in slop code and loss of innovation in code will establish an…

That is a naive assumption. Or rather multiple naive assumptions: Developers mostly don’t move over to AI development, but integrate it into their workflow. Many of them will stay intellectually curious and thus focus their attention elsewhere; I’m not convinced they will just suddenly all stagnate.

Also, training data isn’t just crawled text from the internet anymore, but also sourced from interactions of millions of developers with coding agents, manually provided sample sessions, deliberately generated code, and more—there is a massive amount of money and research involved here, so that’s another bet I wouldn’t be willing to make.

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#24

Post by dataviz1000 »

mohsen1 wrote: post #3

I really really want this to be true. I want to be relevant. I don’t know what to do if all those predictions are true and there is no need (or very little need) for programmers anymore. But something tells me “this time is different” is different this time for real. Coding AIs design software better than me, review code better than me, find hard-to-find bugs better than me, plan long-running projects better than me,…

I was a chef in Michelin-starred restaurants for 11 years. One of my favorite positions was washing dishes. The goal was always to keep the machine running on its 5-minute cycle. It was about getting the dishes into racks, rinsing them, and having them ready and waiting for the previous cycle to end—so you could push them into the machine immediately—then getting them dried and put away after the cycle, making sure the quality was there and no spot was missed. If the machine stopped, the goal was to get another batch into it, putting everything else on hold. Keeping the machine running was the only way to prevent dishes from piling up, which would end with the towers falling over and breaking plates. This work requires moving lightning fast with dexterity.

AI coding agents are analogous to the machine. My job is to get the prompts written, and to do quality control and housekeeping after it runs a cycle. Nonetheless, like all automation, humans are still needed... for now.

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#25

Post by deadbabe »

mohsen1 wrote: post #3

I really really want this to be true. I want to be relevant. I don’t know what to do if all those predictions are true and there is no need (or very little need) for programmers anymore. But something tells me “this time is different” is different this time for real. Coding AIs design software better than me, review code better than me, find hard-to-find bugs better than me, plan long-running projects better than me,…

Where the hell was all this fear when the push for open source everything got fully underway? When entire websites were being spawned and scaffolded with just a couple lines of code? Do we not remember all those impressive tech demos of developers doing massive complex thing with "just one line of code"? How did we not just write software for every kind of software problem that could exist by now?

How has free code, developed by humans, become more available than ever and yet somehow we have had to employ more and more developers? Why didn't we trend toward less developers?

It just doesn't make sense. AI is nothing but a snippet generator, a static analyzer, a linter, a compiler, an LSP, a google search, a copy paste from stackoverflow, all technologies we've had for a long time, all things developers used to have to go without at some point in history.

I don't have the answers.

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#26

Post by belter »

joefourier wrote: post #8
belter wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> From where I’m standing, it’s scary. You are being fooled by randomness [1] Not because the models are random, but because you are mistaking a massive combinatorial search over seen patterns for genuine reasoning. Taleb point was about confusing luck for skill. Dont confuse interpolation for understanding. You can read a Rust book after years of Java, then go build software for an industry that did not exist when…

Have you used an LLM specifically trained for tool calling, in Claude Code, Cursor or Aider? They’re capable of looking up documentation, correcting their errors by compiling and running tests, and when coupled with a linter, hallucinations are a non issue. I don’t really think it’s possible to dismiss a model that’s been trained with reinforcement learning for both reasoning and tool usage as only doing pattern matc…

Ask a model to

"Write a chess engine where pawns move backward and kings can jump like nights"

It will keep slipping back into real chess rules. It learned chess, it did not understand the concept of "rules"

Or

Ask it to reverse a made up word like

"Reverse the string 'glorbix'"

It will get it wrong on the first try. You would not fail.

Or even better ask it to...

"Use the dxastgraphx library to build a DAG scheduler."

dxastgraphx is a non existing library...

Marvel at the results...tried in both Claude and ChatGPT....

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#27

Post by AlexCoventry »

berdon wrote: post #10

There is a guaranteed cap on how far LLM based AI models can go. Models improve by being trained on better data. LLMs being used to generate millions of lines of sloppy code will substantially dilute the pool of good training data. Developers moving over to AI based development will cease to grow and learn - producing less novel code. The massive increase in slop code and loss of innovation in code will establish an…

I think most of the progress is training by reinforcement learning on automated assessments of the code produced. So data is not really an issue.

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#28

Post by scellus »

mohsen1 wrote: post #3

I really really want this to be true. I want to be relevant. I don’t know what to do if all those predictions are true and there is no need (or very little need) for programmers anymore. But something tells me “this time is different” is different this time for real. Coding AIs design software better than me, review code better than me, find hard-to-find bugs better than me, plan long-running projects better than me,…

Perfect economic substitution in coding doesn't happen for a long time. Meanwhile, AI appears as an amplifier to the human and vice versa. That the work will change is scary, but the change also opens up possibilities, many of them now hard to imagine.

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#29

Post by underdeserver »

simonw wrote: post #2

I nodded furiously at this bit: > The hard part of computer programming isn't expressing what we want the machine to do in code. The hard part is turning human thinking -- with all its wooliness and ambiguity and contradictions -- into computational thinking that is logically precise and unambiguous, and that can then be expressed formally in the syntax of a programming language. > That was the hard part when program…

Aren't they also losing money on the marginal inference job?

Re: The future of software development is software developers

#30

Post by Herring »

mohsen1 wrote: post #3

I really really want this to be true. I want to be relevant. I don’t know what to do if all those predictions are true and there is no need (or very little need) for programmers anymore. But something tells me “this time is different” is different this time for real. Coding AIs design software better than me, review code better than me, find hard-to-find bugs better than me, plan long-running projects better than me,…

Try have your engineers pick up some product work. Clients do NOT want to talk to bots.
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