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Staying ahead of censors in 2025

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Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#121

Post by dwb »

dmm wrote: post #106
earthnail wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d much rather get arrested in Britain than Russia or Iran. And I certainly wouldn’t put the UK in the same bucket as Russia and Iran. Not even close. Hate speech is a problem. If it wasn’t, why are Russia and China spending so much on troll farms? It’s a direct attack on a democracy’s ability to form consensus. I don’t think we’ve found the right, effective way to deal with this problem yet, but I applaud any democ…

> Hate speech is a problem. I agree, 100%. Donald Trump should have the power to jail people for things they say online.

That is not how the legal system works in the UK or USA. That said, I am worried that we are going quickly in that direction.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#122

Post by immibis »

throwfaraway135 wrote: post #17

Considering the staggering number of arrest for online/offensive communications in England & Wales, we should add Britain to the list of Russia and Iran 2017: ~5,500 arrests 2019: ~7,734 arrests 2023: ~12,183 arrests

What are people saying that gets them arrested? This important question, whose answer is for some reason never specified in complaints about UK censorship, is crucial to evaluating the severity of the UK's censorship regime.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#123

Post by kolektiv »

hkt wrote: post #118
kolektiv wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, more accurately, when it comes to it, it's in the eyes of a judge (or a jury in some cases). You can have all kinds of arguments about validity of arrests, of prosecutions, etc., but it's still fundamentally a system where you'll be charged with an offence and then either convicted or not. I don't know of a single case (and don't believe anyone can point to one) where people have been arrested for simply cr…

Not exactly a judge or jury. IIRC a common law assault can go on with only the subjective experience of threat. Hard to prove, but the bar is not objective. See: https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/resources/common-offences/a... That is by no means the only crime that is committed subjectively.

True, although even those crimes (take common law assault) will still be heard in front of a magistrate - there's a process, there are processes for appealing, and it's not just some random police officer with the ability to jail you without process.

I agree that the UK has far too many laws that are more subjective than they ideally should be, but they do at least attach some level of observable and knowable process.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#124

Post by immibis »

hkt wrote: post #118
kolektiv wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, more accurately, when it comes to it, it's in the eyes of a judge (or a jury in some cases). You can have all kinds of arguments about validity of arrests, of prosecutions, etc., but it's still fundamentally a system where you'll be charged with an offence and then either convicted or not. I don't know of a single case (and don't believe anyone can point to one) where people have been arrested for simply cr…

Not exactly a judge or jury. IIRC a common law assault can go on with only the subjective experience of threat. Hard to prove, but the bar is not objective. See: https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/resources/common-offences/a... That is by no means the only crime that is committed subjectively.

Do you think if I say "hello", and this is my first communication to you, and you feel threatened, and we're in the UK, I will be arrested?

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#125

Post by Defletter »

n4r9 wrote: post #86
curtisblaine wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norwood vs UK was about Norwood displaying an "Islam out of Britain" sign. Samuel Melia was jailed 2 years for publishing downloadable stickers saying "Mass immigration is white genocide," "Second-generation? Third? Fourth? You have to go back," and "Labour loves Muslim r pe gangs". Are those messages controversial? For sure. Should originator of these messages be prosecuted? I don't think so. Are anti-christian, "de…

Re Norwood vs UK: > Norwood, a member of an extreme right-wing political party [the British National Party], placed a poster on his apartment window that called for the removal of all Muslims from Britain. > the poster in question contained a photograph of the Twin Towers in flame, the words “Islam out of Britain – Protect the British People” and a symbol of a crescent and star in a prohibition sign. The assessment m…

> Interesting that the cases that spring to mind for you are literal neo-Nazis.

If I had a penny for every time this happened....

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#126

Post by immibis »

llmslave2 wrote: post #89
earthnail wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d much rather get arrested in Britain than Russia or Iran. And I certainly wouldn’t put the UK in the same bucket as Russia and Iran. Not even close. Hate speech is a problem. If it wasn’t, why are Russia and China spending so much on troll farms? It’s a direct attack on a democracy’s ability to form consensus. I don’t think we’ve found the right, effective way to deal with this problem yet, but I applaud any democ…

I'd rather get arrested in the UK too, but that's completely irrelevant. > Hate speech is a problem. If it wasn’t, why are Russia and China spending so much on troll farms? Non-sequitur. The existence of troll farms doesn’t mean it's such a big problem that we should give up our rights surrounding speech and communication that we fought hard for.

What are people saying that gets them arrested? This important but as-yet-unanswered question is crucial to evaluating the severity of the UK's censorship regime.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#127

Post by immibis »

pastage wrote: post #98
ajb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The previous law used to control racial hatred was the law of criminal libel; it was successfully used to prosecute antisemitism etc. As a species of libel, it had an absolute defence of of speaking the truth. Now, clearly you can be clever enough to spread hatred by only the use of true statements. But we have reached the point where those speaking the truth about atrocities committed by a foreign government are imp…

> speaking the truth about atrocities committed Why are they doing this, in what context? Edit: from reading the thread I think this is about the war against Hamas and the dire situation on the West bank.

It's inaccurate to say there's a war against Hamas. We have enough video evidence by now, posted by the people doing the acts so there can be no doubt to its authenticity, to see it's a war against civilians.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#128

Post by kolektiv »

immibis wrote: post #124
hkt wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly a judge or jury. IIRC a common law assault can go on with only the subjective experience of threat. Hard to prove, but the bar is not objective. See: https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/resources/common-offences/a... That is by no means the only crime that is committed subjectively.

Do you think if I say "hello", and this is my first communication to you, and you feel threatened, and we're in the UK, I will be arrested?

That would require the police to believe that an offence is likely to have been committed. While I am more than ready to criticise the police for many, many things, I'm not sure they're likely to just take that at face value... (As you've specified first contact, etc., that seems likely - of course there could be situations where such a communication would be an offence, such as in the context of a restraining/exclusion order, etc., but not in this case).

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#129

Post by kubb »

lugu wrote: post #97
throwfaraway135 wrote: post #17

Considering the staggering number of arrest for online/offensive communications in England & Wales, we should add Britain to the list of Russia and Iran 2017: ~5,500 arrests 2019: ~7,734 arrests 2023: ~12,183 arrests

Am I living in a parallel universe or are you just a troll. In Iran you criticize the government on social media and you get arrested. In the UK you promote Nazi ideology and you get arrested. Is that really the same thing for you? Are you not seeing it?

He has a throwaway account just for this occasion.

Probably not acting in good faith.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#130

Post by ajuc »

throwfaraway135 wrote: post #17

Considering the staggering number of arrest for online/offensive communications in England & Wales, we should add Britain to the list of Russia and Iran 2017: ~5,500 arrests 2019: ~7,734 arrests 2023: ~12,183 arrests

When a dictatorship uses police to imprison innocent people the correct response isn't to say "but in Sweden there is police as well, see how many people they imprison a year".

Details matter.

Media laws already penalize traditional media for lying about various subjects in most democracies (see libel laws, etc.). And it's good that they do. The alternative of unchecked lies spreading everywhere is worse.

Why should the internet be exempt from media laws?

The problem with dictatorships isn't that fake news is prohibited. It's that the people who decide what is fake news and what isn't have bad intentions and can't be challenged.

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