This is sad and tragic but ultimately I don't think Mongo bares any responsibility here. If her partner left her while she was having a prolonged mental health crisis, would her partner be to blame for her suicide? I would argue: no.
Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
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Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#72Sad. And perhaps a controversial take but consider the counterfactual: Should it be illegal to fire employees that recent took mental health leave? Get a bad review or put on a PIP? It's already becoming a common strategy to immediately take mental health/sick leave.
> It's already becoming a common strategy I've taken mental health leave (not due to a PIP) and my productivity before and after was significantly different. It was great for my employer that I took it. I'm quite sure I would've eventually ended up with a PIP if I hadn't taken it sooner myself, and the best remedy on a PIP would have been to take mental health leave. Not as a strategy as such, but literally because i…
Yes, exactly. Taking mental health leave should be seen as a positive step: an opportunity to overcome whatever difficulties you've been facing, leading to - amongst many other benefits - better performance at work.
Mental health problems are tricky; they tend to creep up on us gradually, and often some form of external trigger is needed in order to prompt us to seek help. So it shouldn't be at all surprising that an employee in receipt of a PIP might take mental health leave as part of a genuine effort to improve their situation.
gp's cynical "counterfactual" suggests that they view PIPs as being purely a sham, intended to always result in dismissal rather than improved performance. Now, that might occasionally be true - but we should be blaming the abusive employer (who is likely acting outside the law) in that situation, not the employee.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#73Sad. And perhaps a controversial take but consider the counterfactual: Should it be illegal to fire employees that recent took mental health leave? Get a bad review or put on a PIP? It's already becoming a common strategy to immediately take mental health/sick leave.
> Should it be illegal to fire employees that recent took mental health leave?
It's not legal to fire an employee on a sick leave in our country. They have to come back to work and then you can fire them. The employer is not paying their wage during the sick leave anyway, they get money from the social and health insurances. So there is very little downside for the company to keeping the employee employed. And if they employee is somehow faking it, that's an issue to check for the insurance companies.
> It's already becoming a common strategy to immediately take mental health/sick leave.
Maybe the companies should ask themselves very hard why this is happening.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#74This is sad and tragic but ultimately I don't think Mongo bares any responsibility here. If her partner left her while she was having a prolonged mental health crisis, would her partner be to blame for her suicide? I would argue: no.
I'm not American, and neither am I a lawyer, but the elephant in the room is that the workplace is responsible for health insurance, hence terminating her effectively removes her ability to get treatment, too.
Especially in this context, where she asked for at least a minor extension to finish her treatment.
I suspect the parents have a solid chance of winning this because the health insurance is linked, otherwise I'd completely agree with your opinion. An employer shouldn't be responsible for mothering their employees. It creates perverse incentives on both sides of the contract
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder if this should be the case. The state consists of it's voters and it's voted representatives. Companies and the economy in general, are secondary entities (unless you really treat them as people, which opens a whole can of worms, see PACs etc), and a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. As such, yes, be pro-economy, but don't forget the people having to live in that society.
Trying to force companies to keep people longer than they want is how the social safety net works in some places (like Japan) and it's how the US healthcare system works, but both of those are, like, bad. It's better to make it easier to quit and find a new job and support people in the meantime. Denmark as an example. But to do this you have to have other ways to push people to stay productive.
That's part of it, I'm not saying that companies should keep employees past their usefulness, I'm saying government intervention should be pro-citizen first, and pro-economy second (ideally the latter is a logical consequence of the former). Currently it seems like it's companies first, and workers maybe third to last, but only because companies still need workers (and they try really hard to make those obsolete too).
That results in profit maximizing for the few who made it to the carpet floors, and nothing for the rest. It's become too extractive, and short sighted.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Trying to force companies to keep people longer than they want is how the social safety net works in some places (like Japan) and it's how the US healthcare system works, but both of those are, like, bad. It's better to make it easier to quit and find a new job and support people in the meantime. Denmark as an example. But to do this you have to have other ways to push people to stay productive.
That's part of it, I'm not saying that companies should keep employees past their usefulness, I'm saying government intervention should be pro-citizen first, and pro-economy second (ideally the latter is a logical consequence of the former). Currently it seems like it's companies first, and workers maybe third to last, but only because companies still need workers (and they try really hard to make those obsolete too)…
And yes, one of the government interventions that is pro-citizen could be better retraining programs, which are beneficial to companies too, but that's not the goal, it's to give people a motivation, and a sense of accomplishment, and part of the society.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's another controversial take: as long as healthcare is tied to employment, companies shouldn't be allowed to fire someone except for actual negligence / malice. If they suck at their job, find them another one at the company -- there has to be something they can do in a company of 5k employees.
this is too radical even for china or like good ol USSR… damn dude :)
"as long as healthcare is tied to employment" makes it barely radical at all.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#78This is sad and tragic but ultimately I don't think Mongo bares any responsibility here. If her partner left her while she was having a prolonged mental health crisis, would her partner be to blame for her suicide? I would argue: no.
I'm not American, and neither am I a lawyer, but the elephant in the room is that the workplace is responsible for health insurance, hence terminating her effectively removes her ability to get treatment, too. Especially in this context, where she asked for at least a minor extension to finish her treatment. I suspect the parents have a solid chance of winning this because the health insurance is linked, otherwise I'…
Why shouldn't her medical providers be responsible for continuing critical health care regardless of payment? Why is it on the employer who is only tangentially related to this versus the people actually charging large sums of money for medically necessary treatment?
Also, the same health insurance can be continued after termination (with some external payment, of course) in addition to medicaid probably being available. None of that may be easy for someone with mental issues to navigate, but that is systematic.
As for the minor extension, is it clear how long she was on leave and what the conversation had been before the termination? The post said that they asked for small time extension, but did not give any indication as to what was happening before, neither length of time employed before taking the leave, what caused the leave, what was said in terms of a return, how long the absence was, etc. I feel like plugging in different answers for those questions would change how I feel about the culpability of the company in the current legal regime.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
The first step is for you to get your head out of the sand and look around. Jobs are scarce unless you're knee-deep in ML/AI. You're talking like a naive, idealistic, young person. I'm long past any of those attributes and I do have a family and a mortgage. Sure you can move to Europe, workers have more rights...and they earn a hell of a lot less than we do here in the USA (my brother lives in Europe.) And even there…
HN is known for its optimism and abundance mindset. Aside from that, being group actions, reform hinges on mobilizing those who are able to do so to help those who are not. The phrase “solidarity” comes to mind, and that was the whole point. We need a solidarity mindset, not a sarcastic “good luck with that” mindset.
> HN is known for its optimism and abundance mindset.
At this point I think you’re just trolling.
If you’re serious however, come back after you’ve spent a year in your desired first management role and we’ll see if you still feel the same way.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#80Sad. And perhaps a controversial take but consider the counterfactual: Should it be illegal to fire employees that recent took mental health leave? Get a bad review or put on a PIP? It's already becoming a common strategy to immediately take mental health/sick leave.
Better way to look at it: why are people so afraid of losing their job, and how do we reasonably remove the fear of losing one? Denmark may provide some good guidance here, as they have a good balance between social welfare and protections and fostering a robust business environment
I suspect a major way for the U.S. would be the one mentioned in the article: make it so that losing your job doesn't mean losing your health insurance. That's a major additional stressor, particularly if someone loses their job because of an illness.
Of course, there's about a negative one thousand percent chance of something like that passing in the current political climate.