I feel sorry for this woman. Meta did this to me because they're discriminatory dicks, so I know how she felt. Fortunately, I have a tremendous amount of family support.
Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
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Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#32Sad. And perhaps a controversial take but consider the counterfactual: Should it be illegal to fire employees that recent took mental health leave? Get a bad review or put on a PIP? It's already becoming a common strategy to immediately take mental health/sick leave.
Yes. This is already the case in the E.U. and Australia.
Depending on the nature of the leave, this could've also been unlawful in the U.S. due to the Family Leave Act.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#33I’m not sure about third party responsibility for suicide. It’s a horrible, tragic situation.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#34Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#35I’m not sure about third party responsibility for suicide. It’s a horrible, tragic situation.
If you believe a person can drive another person suicide through how they act, I don’t see how this would be any different, especially since they both rely on power asymmetry. If we don’t want to hook MongoDB responsible in some manner than we need to remove that asymmetry
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Companies are made of people. Companies only use people if the people who make up the companies are ok with it. Being a decisionmaker in a company doesn't give you carte blanche to behave like an amoral automaton. So no, MongoDB are assholes for doing this. They could have had some humanity and prioritized human well-being over cost savings.
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Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#37Sad. And perhaps a controversial take but consider the counterfactual: Should it be illegal to fire employees that recent took mental health leave? Get a bad review or put on a PIP? It's already becoming a common strategy to immediately take mental health/sick leave.
Better way to look at it: why are people so afraid of losing their job, and how do we reasonably remove the fear of losing one? Denmark may provide some good guidance here, as they have a good balance between social welfare and protections and fostering a robust business environment
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#38I don't know legally how it works, but my gut says if this is found to be a wrongful termination under state/local/FMLA, then it also stands to reason that this could also be a wrongful death. From 1960, but it covers this line of thinking wrt suicide: https://digitalcommons.law.buffalo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...
Anyway here's the actual complaint (I read it after I wrote the above), I guess her parents/counsel thought the same thing: https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docInde...
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder if this should be the case. The state consists of it's voters and it's voted representatives. Companies and the economy in general, are secondary entities (unless you really treat them as people, which opens a whole can of worms, see PACs etc), and a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. As such, yes, be pro-economy, but don't forget the people having to live in that society.
IMO, there should be a balance. My brother lives in Europe and it seems every time he has a small ache/cold he can go to the doctor and get a note for a couple of days off. On the other hand, companies here in the US expect you to be at work unless you’ve been hit by a bus.
if you are in pain, you need to rest. period. there is no other option. of course the system can be gamed simply because pain can't be measured objectively, at least not without expensive machinery. a cold can be infectious. i don't want people to come to work with a cold.
Re: Employee commits suicide after MongoDB fired her during mental health leave
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Companies are made of people. Companies only use people if the people who make up the companies are ok with it. Being a decisionmaker in a company doesn't give you carte blanche to behave like an amoral automaton. So no, MongoDB are assholes for doing this. They could have had some humanity and prioritized human well-being over cost savings.
I did not say MongoDB weren’t being assholes here. I’m saying asshole behavior is the norm and should be expected. I have an excellent boss (and his boss is fantastically supportive too). Several coworkers have needed leave for sometimes weeks and they have accommodated them. I don’t expect this is the norm or written in our company policies.