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Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

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Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#231

Post by DonHopkins »

HaukeHi wrote: post #190
card_zero wrote: post #63

So, about one mushroom species in five is poisonous. Why is the ratio so low, why are there lots of edible ones? Without hard-shelled seeds to spread, why be eaten? And the poisonous ones apparently don't use color as a warning signal, and don't smell all that bad, and some of the poisons have really mild effects, like "gives only some people diarrhea" or "makes a hangover worse". Meanwhile three of the deadliest spe…

Plants want to be eaten only by big animals that take them on long and random walks and then die far away from where they are picked up to fertilize the seed.

Which also explains the talking Ameglian Major Cow on the menu at Milliways, in Douglas Adams' The Restaurant at the End of the Universe: when you confuse evolutionary outcomes with intent, you end up with livestock enthusiastically volunteering for dinner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAF35dekiAY

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#232

Post by fluoridation »

shlant wrote: post #225
fluoridation wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn. 8-12? For me the peak always lasted 2-3 hours and I was sober again after 7 hours.

yea people in this thread saying 8-12 for psilocybin and 12 is short for LSD tells me these are either heroic doses or hyperbolizing.

Nah. Everything I've read about hallucinogens says dose doesn't change effect duration, only intensity. Drugs do affect people differently, so I wouldn't jump straight to saying they're exaggerating.

Also, 12 hours is definitely not short of LSD. I'd say it's the standard duration, with the peak lasting 7 hours. Longer trips can happen, at least to some people, but the default assumption should be about half a day.

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#233

Post by DonHopkins »

shlant wrote: post #225
fluoridation wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn. 8-12? For me the peak always lasted 2-3 hours and I was sober again after 7 hours.

yea people in this thread saying 8-12 for psilocybin and 12 is short for LSD tells me these are either heroic doses or hyperbolizing.

Or testifying about how long it felt like.

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#234

Post by febusravenga »

eykanal wrote: post #15
nospice wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be that the mushroom just temporarily interferes with the substances the elves put in our water supply to keep us in the dark?

This is some real antimemetics stuff here :) ( https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/antimemetics-division-hub if you're not familiar)

Amazing rabbit hole, thank you for link.

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#236

Post by [deleted] »

tor825gl wrote: post #226
uplifter wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In The Selfish Gene, Dawkins emphasized that the primary unit of evolution was the individual gene, not whole genomes. The genes were replicators and the genomes were just collections of replicators, and the way the selection pressure math worked out, there was too much diffusion of responsibility for whole genomes that typically evolution could not work coherently at that scale, or at least that's my best recollecti…

> Could you recall a quote or chapter from the book that bolsters your point? Yes, the second word of the title.

[deleted]

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#237

Post by wkat4242 »

fooqux wrote: post #69
card_zero wrote: post #63

So, about one mushroom species in five is poisonous. Why is the ratio so low, why are there lots of edible ones? Without hard-shelled seeds to spread, why be eaten? And the poisonous ones apparently don't use color as a warning signal, and don't smell all that bad, and some of the poisons have really mild effects, like "gives only some people diarrhea" or "makes a hangover worse". Meanwhile three of the deadliest spe…

Two things: 0) Humans (and even our recent ancestors) eating you are a very recent thing to be concerned about, numbers-wise. By the time our numbers were enough to provide evolutionary pressure, we started farming what we wanted, which kinda breaks the process. Also. most poisons don't effect everything equally, so what might prevent a horse from eating you might taste delicious to us (like the nightshade family) or…

> So many people, even when they obviously know better, like to think of evolution as intelligent. It's obviously not. But every time someone says stuff like this, it reinforces the fallacy and then we get people saying things like "if evolution is real, why come $insane_argument_against_evolution?"

Tbh those kinds of people are beyond convincing. And I think most of them are trolling or have fallen under the spell of other trolls. There's clearly a network effect. We don't really have a flat earther movement here in Europe and evolution deniers are insignificant.

I don't think people saying these things actually think evolution is intelligent. They just use the phrase "want" to indicate the survival pressure that lead to the change propagating.

But the people that don't believe in evolution are so indoctrinated it doesn't matter what words we use.

Ps I do find it fascinating that a non intelligent process like evolution managed to create intelligence. Even though the state of the world often makes me doubt intelligence exists :)

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#238

Post by uplifter »

tor825gl wrote: post #226
uplifter wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In The Selfish Gene, Dawkins emphasized that the primary unit of evolution was the individual gene, not whole genomes. The genes were replicators and the genomes were just collections of replicators, and the way the selection pressure math worked out, there was too much diffusion of responsibility for whole genomes that typically evolution could not work coherently at that scale, or at least that's my best recollecti…

> Could you recall a quote or chapter from the book that bolsters your point? Yes, the second word of the title.

Yeah, that's not really good enough, by the author's own admission:

From wikipedia: 'In the foreword to the book's 30th-anniversary edition, Dawkins said he "can readily see that [the book's title] might give an inadequate impression of its contents" and in retrospect wishes he had taken Tom Maschler's advice and titled it The Immortal Gene.[2] He laments that “Too many people read it by title only.”' [0]

Furthermore, your concept that genes should be thought of as having a plan is just in stark contradiction with the Darwinian conception of natural selection, which Dawkins was largely a champion of.

My own recollection was that he described how genes readily had the appearance of acting in their own best interest, but he fell short of advocating that modeling them as having intention is a useful contrivance. Evolution does not have any sense for the future, there is no planning evolved, and Dawkins understands that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#239

Post by tor825gl »

uplifter wrote: post #238
tor825gl wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could you recall a quote or chapter from the book that bolsters your point? Yes, the second word of the title.

Yeah, that's not really good enough, by the author's own admission: From wikipedia: 'In the foreword to the book's 30th-anniversary edition, Dawkins said he "can readily see that [the book's title] might give an inadequate impression of its contents" and in retrospect wishes he had taken Tom Maschler's advice and titled it The Immortal Gene.[2] He laments that “Too many people read it by title only.”' [0] Furthermore…

> he fell short of advocating that modeling them as having intention is a useful contrivance

Sorry, I remember differently. That "modelling them as having intention is a useful contrivance" is exactly the central argument of the book.

People misread the title by assuming that he was arguing that they actually did have intention.

Re: Experts explore new mushroom which causes fairytale-like hallucinations

#240

Post by uplifter »

tor825gl wrote: post #239
uplifter wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's not really good enough, by the author's own admission: From wikipedia: 'In the foreword to the book's 30th-anniversary edition, Dawkins said he "can readily see that [the book's title] might give an inadequate impression of its contents" and in retrospect wishes he had taken Tom Maschler's advice and titled it The Immortal Gene.[2] He laments that “Too many people read it by title only.”' [0] Furthermore…

> he fell short of advocating that modeling them as having intention is a useful contrivance Sorry, I remember differently. That "modelling them as having intention is a useful contrivance" is exactly the central argument of the book. People misread the title by assuming that he was arguing that they actually did have intention.

That's fine, all I'm saying is that if genes don't actually have intention, then the utility of modeling them as though they do must be strictly limited, if not an outright liability in some contexts. Use the heuristic at your own risk, but don't sell it as gospel truth.
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