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Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

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Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#71

Post by bobim »

_sxou wrote: post #44

Could this be applicable and available to the public within a reasonable time horizon? My mother is dealing with a brain tumor located in the pons, and no surgeons will operate because of its location, as the risk is too high. Radiation treatments have also been exhausted and have already caused some necrosis. There was another form of light-based therapy, but it is experimental and carries an incredibly high risk as…

Getting the US through the skull bone is next to impossible due to the acoustic impedance mismatch with surrounding tissues. As a stranger I'm deeply sorry for your situation, and thought your question should be answered somehow...

If you want to dig a little bit, the team of Mathias Fink in Paris explored "time reversal" techniques to get through the skull: one have to emmit from the tumor location, listen with a huge array, reverse the signature and blast. I don't know if this ended with a medical device.

Take care.

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#73

Post by j16sdiz »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #18
CGMthrowaway wrote: post #10

What are the chances that breaking up a tumor this way seeds cancer elsewhere in the body? 2024 meta analysis of seeding I didn't see ultrasound in there: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39605885/ Here is a study on AEs specifically from this type of ultrasound: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Quote: "Cavitation detaches cancer cells/emboli from the primary site and thereby releases th…

> What are the chances that breaking up a tumor this way seeds cancer elsewhere in the body? that's discussed in the article

I read it three time and can't see anything related.

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#74

Post by hgomersall »

observationist wrote: post #37
cowsandmilk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HistoSonics has studies published with 50 patients. Their upcoming study with 5000 liver patients obviously will give more information, but we already have some. And with that said, these studies are more relevant than the top of thread linking to a review from 2011 looking at papers from 2005-2006 for ultrasound cavitation causing metastases.

>>> ... the study found that removing the parachute prior to jumping led to a shocking increase in mortality among skydivers. When there's a clear causal mechanism, additional research that doesn't propose a clear resolution to the underlying problem doesn't negate the clear causal mechanism. Releasing a bunch of loose cancer into the body is a clear causal mechanism, so unless you're filtering it or killing the loos…

The evidence seems to be that the cells are destroyed, not just split up: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9404673/

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#75

Post by bythreads »

gamblor956 wrote: post #55
adamredwoods wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chemo post-histrophy would remove any lingering cancer cells effectively. Cancer cells need lots of fuel or they stop replicating, and this is what traditional chemo is great at stopping.

The keto diet is also very good for this because many (but not all) cancer cells can't metabolize ketones. However recent research from Columbia Medical School suggests that it can promote metastasis.

Edited for politeness:

Cancer metabolism isn’t a 2-bit meme. Tumors adapt. If they couldn’t, they wouldn’t metastasize.

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#76

Post by f6v »

observationist wrote: post #37
cowsandmilk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HistoSonics has studies published with 50 patients. Their upcoming study with 5000 liver patients obviously will give more information, but we already have some. And with that said, these studies are more relevant than the top of thread linking to a review from 2011 looking at papers from 2005-2006 for ultrasound cavitation causing metastases.

>>> ... the study found that removing the parachute prior to jumping led to a shocking increase in mortality among skydivers. When there's a clear causal mechanism, additional research that doesn't propose a clear resolution to the underlying problem doesn't negate the clear causal mechanism. Releasing a bunch of loose cancer into the body is a clear causal mechanism, so unless you're filtering it or killing the loos…

> Releasing a bunch of loose cancer into the body is a clear causal mechanism

I'm not in cancer field, but I'm not sure it is. AFAIK the cells that metastasize need to undergo EMT. Simply releasing them from the tumor doesn't mean the cells can attach and survive in the distal site.

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#77

Post by f6v »

softjobs wrote: post #69
candiddevmike wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood Seems a little too speculatively worded, IMO.

It's called the abscopal effect; see e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8537037/

Yes, we were doing a clinical trial where the primary tumor was irradiated which causes antigen release. The patients were given immune checkpoint inhibitors at the same time to activate immune cells. It's promising but tricky.

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#78

Post by f6v »

flir wrote: post #30
candiddevmike wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood Seems a little too speculatively worded, IMO.

If it was true, couldn't you get the same effect by taking a biopsy, fragmenting the cells, and injecting them back in? Like a vaccination, in fact. Somebody must have studied that approach already.

First issue is that tumors don't necessarily have to be highly immunogenic, e.g. there're tumors that don't present many neoantigens on the surface. This means immune cells can't easily recognize them. Second issue is that tumor microenvironment evolves to be immunosuppressive. There're many different signals that regulate immune cells activation and simply having antigen-specific cells isn't enough. But as someone said in a sister thread, what you're describing is a basis for multiple clinical trials that combine antigen release with immune activation.

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#79

Post by f6v »

moralestapia wrote: post #9
jtbaker wrote: post #8

As someone who was recently diagnosed and treated for Uveal Melanoma (get your annual eye exam and retinal scans!), and occasionally struggling with some intrusive thoughts about the potential for liver mets, reading about this treatment brought me so much joy. Bless Zhen Xu!

Hey, I'm curious, did you have symptoms or did you just find it by chance?

I have a relative with the same disease. They went to a an eye doctor because of visual artifacts. Turns out the tumor was so big it caused retinal detachment. Basically, most people get diagnosed at a very late stage because it's mostly asymptomatic.

Re: Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors

#80

Post by amelius »

flir wrote: post #30
candiddevmike wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood Seems a little too speculatively worded, IMO.

If it was true, couldn't you get the same effect by taking a biopsy, fragmenting the cells, and injecting them back in? Like a vaccination, in fact. Somebody must have studied that approach already.

Exactly my thought.
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